Movie: Pope John Paul II

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Movie: Pope John Paul II

Postby Brandon » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:10 am

Pope John Paul II is a wonderful movie produced by Ignatius Press. It stars both Jon Voight and Cary Elwes as Karol Wojtyla. Elwes and Voight are both talented actors, at least in this film. Elwes play John Paul the Great from the time he is a simple and humble Polish youth suffering under Nazi occupation, all the way up to his election as the successor of St. Peter. After that, Voight steps in and takes over. He does a wonderful job. I cried during some of this movie because it reminded me so powerfully of the greatness of John Paul II, of how much I loved him and how much I still miss him. I highly recommend this movie to everyone, Catholic or not.
Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

- 1 Peter 5:8

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Postby mattchand » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:00 pm

Perhaps this will partly atone for Voight's appearance in the awful Noah's Ark TV movie a few years ago, which one reviewer referred to as, "...the Battlefield Earth of biblical epics."
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Postby John Bear » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:41 am

I suspect it doesn't deal with the probable murder of John Paul I, eh?

David Yallop's bestselling 1984 book, In God's Name: An Investigation into the Murder of Pope John Paul I, is the 'standard' text in this matter. Here's a more recent detailed summary of the case by Gregory Christiano:
http://www.prose-n-poetry.com/display_work/10583/
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Postby Brandon » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:36 am

John Bear wrote:I suspect it doesn't deal with the probable murder of John Paul I, eh?


I’m not surprised that this was brought up but I thought it would be Carl. Anyways, down to business.

Considering that this is about the life of John Paul II, it doesn’t delve into the life of JP I. Of course, a character playing him is briefly shown at the conclave that elected him and his short papacy is mentioned at the conclave that elected John Paul the Great.

I have to say that I take issue with your use of the word “probable.” Let’s see why you think it is so.

John Bear wrote:David Yallop's bestselling 1984 book, In God's Name: An Investigation into the Murder of Pope John Paul I, is the 'standard' text in this matter.


I see. David Yallop. I could write an extensive refutation of his work but it seems that someone else already has. I’ll cut and paste this from Wikipedia:

“In his book A Thief in The Night, British historian and journalist John Cornwell examines and challenges Yallop’s points of suspicion.

To allow for a cleanup of the evidence, Yallop’s murder theory requires that the pope’s body be found at 4:30 or 4:45 a.m., one hour earlier than official reports estimated. He bases this on an early story by the Italian news service ANSA that garbled the time and misrepresented the layout of the papal apartments. Yallop also claims to have had testimony from Sister Vincenza to this effect but refused to show Cornwell his transcripts.

Both papal secretaries and a confidante of the late Sister Vincenza insist that the body was discovered about 5:30 a.m. The nun noticed that the coffee she had left outside the pope’s bedroom door a few minutes earlier, as per his morning routine, had not been touched. She went through two sets of doors and parted a curtain to find John Paul dead on his bed with a light on and reading material in his hands. Magee was summoned first, then Lorenzi. They found rigor mortis already beginning to set in and tore the pope’s cassock while preparing his private laying-out. This supports the official estimate for time of death as 11 p.m. the previous evening. Yallop’s theory requires the pope to be freshly dead at 4:30 a.m. since digitalis administered the night before would have taken hours to work.

Yallop suggests a “secret” autopsy while John Paul was lying in state, but what he refers to was a simple retouching of the corpse. Yallop claims no death certificate was issued; Cornwell reproduces it.

Yallop also claims that the undertakers were summoned at 5 a.m. before the official finding of the body, but this is based on an incorrect news story taken from garbled secondhand information. The Vatican carpool log shows the embalmers were sent for at 5:15 p.m. The procedure began about 7 p.m.

Yallop questions the disappearance of incriminating personal effects, supposedly removed by Cardinal Villot. He thinks John Paul’s slippers and glasses might have been stained with vomit caused by the digitalis poisoning. But Cornwell finds that the pope’s sister took them. His last will was a brief document bequeathing his goods to a Venetian convent, not a spiritual testament (as claimed by Yallop).

Yallop’s one damning datum was a Swiss Guard’s observation of Marcinkus on foot lurking near the papal residence at an unusually early hour on the morning of the pope’s death. But the guardsman, Hans Roggen, told Cornwell that his testimony was taken deceptively and misrepresented. Marcinkus was a demonstrably early riser and had driven in at his usual time. And contrary to Yallop’s accusation, Roggen had not been asleep at his post.

Having demolished Yallop’s evidence, Cornwell offers his own explanation. After conferring with a cardiac specialist and a forensic medicine expert, he rules out heart attack, congestive heart failure, and aneurysm in favor of pulmonary embolism as the cause of John Paul’s death. If the pope’s body is exhumed someday, an autopsy could clarify the cause of death, but this would never be permitted.

Cornwell's research suggested that Luciani had indeed been in poor health, as confirmed by his niece, herself a medical doctor, and many senior Vatican figures. She suggested that Luciani suffered from swollen ankles and feet (a sign of poor circulation and excessive coagulability of the blood) such that he could not wear the shoes purchased for him at the time of his election. Curiously, a Vatican physician had not seen him nor had his prescriptions filled.

Cornwell concluded that John Paul I died of a pulmonary embolism (which was consistent with Luciani's past medical history—including a retinal embolism in 1976). Cornwell suggested that John Paul died at about 9.30 p.m., perhaps 10.00 p.m., at his desk and was found on the floor by the priest secretaries. These moved the body into the bed and placed it in what is truly an unusual position for a person who has died suddenly (sitting up, eyeglasses in place and papers in hand), with no indication whatsoever that he was experiencing a fatal attack. Cornwell's rationale is that the two secretaries were trying to cover-up the fact that the Pope had suffered two episodes of acute chest pain that are consistent with a diagnosis of an imminent pulmonary embolism, as well as a severe coughing fit.

They suggested in both cases that the doctors be summoned, but the Pope brushed them off. Cornwell claims that guilt drove them to want to make his death look sudden so that no blame would fall on them. (In addition it would be more respectful to Luciani's memory and the papacy's honour for it to be suggested that Luciani had died a dignified death sitting reading on his bed, rather than alone, crumpled in a fetal position on the ground.)

Both secretaries (one, John Magee, now the Irish Catholic bishop of Cloyne) deny it—but Cornwell's theory explains many of the strange circumstances without resorting to major conspiracies. This simplicity gives it a significant advantage over other explanations. It also explains strange comments by both men; Magee talked on the night of the Pope's death to the nuns in the Papal Household about the possibility of the Pope's death that night. The other secretary spoke of the pope's back and feet still being warm when he lifted him. Given the fact that, even if he died in bed, his corpse could not possibly have been warm by the time he was found (around 5.30 a.m., by which time rigor mortis had set in, resulting in the breaking of some bones in the late pope's body—his knee according to some accounts, his back to others—as it was forced into a suitable position for a lying-in-state). While the Vatican unofficially praised the book, others have criticised it, questioning its hypotheses and conclusions. The demands for the exhumation of the Pope's remains and the carrying out of a belated publicly acknowledged autopsy have continued.”

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_I_conspiracy_theories"

By using Occam’s Razor, when choosing between the two theories that adequately explain the inconsistencies, the most probable will be the simplest and most mundane. Therefore, we should say that Mr. Cornwell’s theory is the probable explanation, not Mr. Yallop. Peace.

John Bear wrote:Here's a more recent detailed summary of the case by Gregory Christiano: http://www.prose-n-poetry.com/display_work/10583/


I couldn’t get that to open up. My computer is a space age paper weight. Was there something interesting to be found, or just a simple summary? Thanks.
Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

- 1 Peter 5:8

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Re: Movie: Pope John Paul II

Postby Abner » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:19 am

Brandon wrote:Pope John Paul II is a wonderful movie produced by Ignatius Press. It stars both Jon Voight and Cary Elwes as Karol Wojtyla. Elwes and Voight are both talented actors, at least in this film. Elwes play John Paul the Great from the time he is a simple and humble Polish youth suffering under Nazi occupation, all the way up to his election as the successor of St. Peter. After that, Voight steps in and takes over. He does a wonderful job. I cried during some of this movie because it reminded me so powerfully of the greatness of John Paul II, of how much I loved him and how much I still miss him. I highly recommend this movie to everyone, Catholic or not.



Hey Brandon. I was lucky enough to see Pope John Paull II give a mass at Vatican City in 1997, St. Patricks day. I will never forget it.


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Postby Brandon » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:21 pm

How lucky you were! I was actually trying to save up money for a pilgrimage to Vatican City but John Paul the Great returned to our Lord before I had near enough. Maybe I’ll eventually get to see Benedict XVI. God Bless, my friend.
Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

- 1 Peter 5:8

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Postby North » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:05 am

John Bear wrote:I suspect it doesn't deal with the probable murder of John Paul I, eh?

David Yallop's bestselling 1984 book, In God's Name: An Investigation into the Murder of Pope John Paul I, is the 'standard' text in this matter. Here's a more recent detailed summary of the case by Gregory Christiano:
http://www.prose-n-poetry.com/display_work/10583/


I read that book and it was very interesting. Then the Pope (JP II) sheltered that Polish American Cardianl or Arch Bishop alleged to be involved in the Vatican Bank scandal (can't remember his name) and people went hmmmmm.

Made interesting reading but I am not much into conspiracy theories.

Did enjoy both Pope JP II movies. What a papacy.......
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Postby Carl_Reginstein » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:48 pm

Brandon wrote:How lucky you were! I was actually trying to save up money for a pilgrimage to Vatican City but John Paul the Great returned to our Lord before I had near enough. Maybe I’ll eventually get to see Benedict XVI. God Bless, my friend.


You'll not only get to see Benedict XVI. You'll eventually get to see God, my pious friend..... :wink:
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