Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Discussions of topics unrelated to education or degrees but still of interest to our members.

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby Rich Douglas » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:45 pm

nosborne48 wrote:Don't worry about it, Dr. Douglas. No one pulls a gun on a federal employee and gets away with it.


I mean this with all sincerity...is this sarcasm? Or are you serious? Either way, I appreciate your perspective and would love to hear it.
Rich Douglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:07 pm

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby nosborne48 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:32 am

I am absolutely serious.
Una cosa mala nunca muere.
nosborne48
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:42 am

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby nosborne48 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:50 pm

Here's a cold blooded way to think about it...Bundy and some of his gun nut pals have been irritants to the Feds for years. By pointing guns at federal employees, Bundy and Co. have finally given the Feds the opening they need. Those stupid Sagebrush "Heros" are looking at a prison term and a permanent weapons ban.
Una cosa mala nunca muere.
nosborne48
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:42 am

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby Rich Douglas » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:34 pm

nosborne48 wrote:Here's a cold blooded way to think about it...Bundy and some of his gun nut pals have been irritants to the Feds for years. By pointing guns at federal employees, Bundy and Co. have finally given the Feds the opening they need. Those stupid Sagebrush "Heros" are looking at a prison term and a permanent weapons ban.


I am pleased to read you say that. It is how I hope things play out.

This isn't a case of civil disobedience, where protesters passively resist an unfair government. I don't know how one could retain any sympathy for their cause given what he and others have done.
Rich Douglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:07 pm

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby Eric » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:24 pm

nosborne48 wrote:Here's a cold blooded way to think about it...Bundy and some of his gun nut pals have been irritants to the Feds for years. By pointing guns at federal employees, Bundy and Co. have finally given the Feds the opening they need. Those stupid Sagebrush "Heros" are looking at a prison term and a permanent weapons ban.


Yes that was wrong, they shouldn't have pointed or even brought their guns with them.
The Federal employees are there to protect us not to harm us in USA today for most of the part. As there maybe s few bad apples everywhere.
Eric

"The best social program is a good job,"
President Ronald Reagan
Eric
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:07 am
Location: UK / USA

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby Rich Douglas » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:23 am

Eric wrote:
nosborne48 wrote:Here's a cold blooded way to think about it...Bundy and some of his gun nut pals have been irritants to the Feds for years. By pointing guns at federal employees, Bundy and Co. have finally given the Feds the opening they need. Those stupid Sagebrush "Heros" are looking at a prison term and a permanent weapons ban.


Yes that was wrong, they shouldn't have pointed or even brought their guns with them.
The Federal employees are there to protect us not to harm us in USA today for most of the part. As there maybe s few bad apples everywhere.


If those people had the bravery to sit in, or chain themselves to gates, or to get arrested peacefully, THEN I might consider it "civil disobedience." Instead, it's just armed resistance, the refuge of criminals.
Rich Douglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:07 pm

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby SteveFoerster » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:01 am

Rich Douglas wrote:If those people had the bravery to sit in, or chain themselves to gates, or to get arrested peacefully, THEN I might consider it "civil disobedience." Instead, it's just armed resistance, the refuge of criminals.

Why wouldn't the same description apply to those who fought in the American Revolution?
BS, Information Systems concentration, Charter Oak State College
MA in Educational Technology Leadership, George Washington University
PhD in Leadership, U. of the Cumberlands (in progress)
More about me at my site
SteveFoerster
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2352
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:41 pm
Location: Northern Virginia & Dominica, West Indies

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby Rich Douglas » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:45 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Rich Douglas wrote:If those people had the bravery to sit in, or chain themselves to gates, or to get arrested peacefully, THEN I might consider it "civil disobedience." Instead, it's just armed resistance, the refuge of criminals.

Why wouldn't the same description apply to those who fought in the American Revolution?


Hindsight is a very wonderful thing.

Perhaps this Nevadan George Washington can lead his merry band to revolution and freedom. Then children can sing songs about him, historians can burnish his story, and we can all remember back when he led his people away from the tyranny of the U.S. government. Right.

It is common practice among some conservatives these days to claim to be exempt from the laws they don't like. Well, they're not.

This guy isn't heading towards a Constitutional Convention. He's just going to go to jail.
Rich Douglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:07 pm

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby Eric » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:51 pm

As I mentioned before, pointing guns toward federal agents is wrong.

But as a Jew I member how KGB - Federal Agents or under Hitler his agents acted. Germany used to be wonderful haven for Jews until WW1.
But this is another discussion and in no way I compare the great county in which I live today USA to the above examples.

But for 100 years, in my humble view it seems that the federal government has usurped powers not delegated to it in our Constitution.
What should we do about it?
Should we reclaim our existing Constitution and put an end to the usurpation?
Or should we “modernize”the Constitution by delegating to the federal government the powers it has usurped – so as to legalize what is now unconstitutional?

I know many would like to shoot the mesanger, I hope we can have a debate and address the message.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Publius/huldah128.htm
Eric

"The best social program is a good job,"
President Ronald Reagan
Eric
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:07 am
Location: UK / USA

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby Rich Douglas » Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:04 pm

Those clowns waving their guns at federal officials are lucky. They're lucky they were treated as U.S. citizens and not people taking up armed aggression against the U.S. They'd have no chance, nor would any of these so-called secessionists. Can you imagine what one A-10 Warthog or an AH-1 Cobra would do to them?

When the American revolutionaries broke from Britain, they did with comparable technology. Same with the Confederacy. But no more. The country that faced down the USSR for decades with tens of thousands of nukes could handle these yokels with ease. They're lucky the US government doesn't want to fight them.

That said, should states consider secession? I'm all for it. Consider the states of the Confederacy--Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Arkansas,and Texas. All, with the exception of Arkansas, receive more from the federal government than they kick in. Nevada, where the Bundy ranch is? Yep. They're just "takers," not makers, I guess.

Can you imagine what would happen in those states if the Feds pulled out? The damage would be incalcuable--so much is done by the federal government. Those states would simply collapse, their economies crushed. And you know the government would pull its military out--they wouldn't just join the other side like with the CSA. (It's a totally different situation these days--the technologies and infrastructures needed to lead a modern military would be gone.)

Of course, all of this secession talk is silly, but it's fun to expose the hypocrisy and idiocy behind it.
Rich Douglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:07 pm

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby nosborne48 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:39 am

Talk of revolution or secession IS silly because we fought a Civil War to establish once for all you can't do it. The cultural changes wrought by that war and the ensuing Amendments remade the country from a federation to a nation. We do still talk about being a Nevadan or a Virginian but we think of ourselves as Americans.

We rarely even talk about State Citizenship anymore even though the concept is legally quite real and has consequences. I wish we did use it more. It clarifies certain issues. But the white racists have co-opted that discussion and state citizenship has become code for their nonsense notion of a superior Whites-Only "birthright Citizenship" somehow not dependent on the Fourteenth Amendment.

But Bundy and his gun-nut crowd are not some oppressed minority fighting for freedom. They're just playing a stupid and dangerous game to makes themselves feel like heros. Less like the confederates than the Whiskey Rebellion people whom Washington himself went into the field to suppress. Like Bundy, they didn't want to pay the government what under the law they owed. That's all is was then and that's all it is now.

The Feds didn't shoot because they didn't need to. The matter will be managed through the ordinary course of the civil law.
Una cosa mala nunca muere.
nosborne48
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:42 am

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby Eric » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:04 am

nosborne48 wrote:Talk of revolution or secession IS silly because we fought a Civil War to establish once for all you can't do it. The cultural changes wrought by that war and the ensuing Amendments remade the country from a federation to a nation. We do still talk about being a Nevadan or a Virginian but we think of ourselves as Americans.

We rarely even talk about State Citizenship anymore even though the concept is legally quite real and has consequences. I wish we did use it more. It clarifies certain issues. But the white racists have co-opted that discussion and state citizenship has become code for their nonsense notion of a superior Whites-Only "birthright Citizenship" somehow not dependent on the Fourteenth Amendment.

But Bundy and his gun-nut crowd are not some oppressed minority fighting for freedom. They're just playing a stupid and dangerous game to makes themselves feel like heros. Less like the confederates than the Whiskey Rebellion people whom Washington himself went into the field to suppress. Like Bundy, they didn't want to pay the government what under the law they owed. That's all is was then and that's all it is now.

The Feds didn't shoot because they didn't need to. The matter will be managed through the ordinary course of the civil law.


So how do we deal with abuse of power by the government if such is proven? I thought that IRS is used to pressure so to speak selected GOP related groups.

Article I, §1, of our Constitution says only Congress may make laws.[3] But since Woodrow Wilson, executive agencies in the federal government have been churning out regulations which govern all aspects of our lives. These comprise the now gigantic Code of Federal Regulations.

Are all these regulations are unconstitutional as in violation of Art. I, §1![4] ???

Well then, one would expect that a person who wanted to “limit the federal bureaucracy” would demand the repeal of existing regulation sand an end to all future rule-making, right?

Not Levin!Section2 of his amendment legalizes all existing regulations and the rule making process. Levin’s “fix” is merely to form a congressional committee to review certain regulations before they are imposed on the American People.

Levin’s amendment “to limit federal spending”(p 73 -74)

Our Constitution limits federal spending to the enumerated powers. If you go through the Constitution and highlight the powers delegated to Congress or the President, you will have a complete list of the objects on which Congress may lawfully spend money. That is how our Framers controlled federal spending. It is the enumerated powers which limit spending – not the amount of revenue the federal government generates or the size of the GDP.Do you see?

The reason we have a crushing debt is because for 100 years, the federal government has ignored the limits –already set forth in the Constitution - on its spending.

Well then, a person who wanted to “limit federal spending” would demand that Congress begin to downsize the federal government and restrict spending to the enumerated powers, right?

But Levin doesn’t do this. Section 1 of his amendment legalizes all the spending which is now unconstitutional as outside the enumerated powers. It says:

“Congress shall adopt a preliminary fiscal year budget no later than the first Monday in May for the following fiscal year, and submit said budget to the President for consideration.”
Eric

"The best social program is a good job,"
President Ronald Reagan
Eric
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:07 am
Location: UK / USA

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby SteveFoerster » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:33 pm

Rich Douglas wrote:
SteveFoerster wrote:
Rich Douglas wrote:If those people had the bravery to sit in, or chain themselves to gates, or to get arrested peacefully, THEN I might consider it "civil disobedience." Instead, it's just armed resistance, the refuge of criminals.

Why wouldn't the same description apply to those who fought in the American Revolution?


Hindsight is a very wonderful thing.

Perhaps this Nevadan George Washington can lead his merry band to revolution and freedom. Then children can sing songs about him, historians can burnish his story, and we can all remember back when he led his people away from the tyranny of the U.S. government. Right.

It is common practice among some conservatives these days to claim to be exempt from the laws they don't like. Well, they're not.

This guy isn't heading towards a Constitutional Convention. He's just going to go to jail.

He may, but I was referring to your blanket statement that armed resistance is "the refuge of criminals". That raises the question whether there's anything you expect people not to simply accept from those with badges and guns, or should a supposedly free people submit to literally anything?
BS, Information Systems concentration, Charter Oak State College
MA in Educational Technology Leadership, George Washington University
PhD in Leadership, U. of the Cumberlands (in progress)
More about me at my site
SteveFoerster
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2352
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:41 pm
Location: Northern Virginia & Dominica, West Indies

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby nosborne48 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:46 pm

In a representative government such as our own, WE are the government. The People adopted, and periodically amend, our basic laws, the federal and state constitutions. WE elect our representatives, our executives, and sometimes even the Judiciary. What the gun nut white supremacist crowd doesn't like is that they are a tiny minority and they want to live by their own rules while enjoying the benefits the majority provide to all citizens.

So there is recourse to the Courts which have decided against Bundy. There's the political process. But in the end, if the decisions of a government of laws run against an individual, the individual is expected to submit to the authority of the government. Civil society is impossible otherwise.

Fundamental to the concept of government is that the government alone is authorized to use physical force. Bundy and the gun nuts don't get that.
Una cosa mala nunca muere.
nosborne48
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:42 am

Re: Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada

Postby SteveFoerster » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:38 pm

You can knock off the ad hominem. I'm not saying I support the resisters in this particular case, but I can see instances not terribly different from it when I might. And if you look at my family album it's crystal clear I'm not a white supremacist, and I don't even own a gun, so while I respect the rights of those who make a different choice from mine, I'm obviously not a gun nut.
BS, Information Systems concentration, Charter Oak State College
MA in Educational Technology Leadership, George Washington University
PhD in Leadership, U. of the Cumberlands (in progress)
More about me at my site
SteveFoerster
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2352
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:41 pm
Location: Northern Virginia & Dominica, West Indies

PreviousNext

Return to Off-topic Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron