Rev. Fred Phelps dying

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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby Jimmy » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:53 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Jimmy wrote:Comparing bullets and knives to words is like comparing apples to oranges. Allowing words to dictate one's thoughts and feelings is giving power to the other person.

There is that, but more importantly, it's very foolish to believe that if those in government have the power to regulate the expression of opinions that in the long run they'll only use it regulate hate speech.


Ah, the power of the Federal government!
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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby johann » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:46 pm

Steve Foerster wrote:it's very foolish to believe that if those in government have the power to regulate the expression of opinions that in the long run they'll only use it regulate hate speech.

It certainly is foolish. And I never said I believed this. Many - if not most - governments find ways to regulate whatever speech they wish to - and I'm not just talking of totalitarian countries here - I have no illusions. Since I'm convinced that the Canadian Government will do exactly what it (or Stephen Harper) wants anyway, I'm happy to see our specific hate-speech statutes in place. As for gagging other expression - well, "they don't need no stinkin' statutes." :( They have ways...

I also don't buy the "apples and oranges" dichotomy expressed. Both weapons and hate-speech can be deeply harmful. Again, we have pretty good laws (as I see it -though Americans won't agree) re: guns here. I have about one-tenth the chance of being murdered in a large Canadian city vs. most major American cities. I'm not saying you should have these controls in the US. I don't want to get shot! :) Go ahead and enjoy your constitutional right to bear arms. Party like it's 1776!

Also - speaking of ridiculous notions, as we were in Paragraph 1 - a person offended by hate speech is not simply "giving power" to the offending person. The offender is taking it by force. Perhaps some here have (or think they have) the fortitude to shrug hate-speech off - or whack the offender over the head. Some don't have the same makeup - especially in the face of adverse numerical odds.

Guess I'm just over-the-moon happy that there are laws here, that offer some protection to a "nutless Canadian retard with no gun" as I was called in this forum, last time around. And don't worry - it did me no harm whatsoever. :sad:

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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby Oregon » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:03 am

johann wrote:Guess I'm just over-the-moon happy that there are laws here, that offer some protection to a "nutless Canadian retard with no gun" as I was called in this forum, last time around. And don't worry - it did me no harm whatsoever. :sad:

Johann


Then I guess I don't have to tell you to toughen up. Supposed hate laws are instituted to protect groups from threats of violent action but always end up being thought control. Almost no-one has been convicted under Canada's hate speech law - what is it one conviction in 50 years? The insidious things in Canada are Human Rights Commissions whose main function is the removal of human rights from white males, the only target. Human Rights Commissions perform the duty of judge, jury, and executioner while ignoring rules of evidence and award big cash awards merely because someone feels embarrassed or threatened. Guys operating under a system like that killed a bunch of my relatives in Europe a couple generations ago.
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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby johann » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:00 am

Oregon wrote: The insidious things in Canada are Human Rights Commissions whose main function is the removal of human rights from white males, the only target.

Oh yeah, my rights are being removed, daily - I'm being targeted! Help! :D :D I realized already that we come from entirely different places. But what do I really know - I just live here. Silly me - over-the-moon happy - to live in Canada. :)

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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby Rich Douglas » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:56 am

I don't think their message (about God and homosexuals) was the problem. That's a free speech issue, no matter how much one might not like that message. No, the real argument was over their behavior, and whether it was lawful. Yes, the "hate speech" element was present, but that's more about verbal assault than free speech.

Imagine for a moment if you changed the message to something not typically found in the "hate speech arena. Let's say they were holding up signs protesting gun laws instead, and otherwise engaging in identical behavior (shouting at people, picketing funerals, etc.) Wouldn't that still be the problem?

Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the "hate speech/crime" distinction. I think there are criminal forms of speech, sure. And there are laws to deal with those. And making distinctions about why someone did a crime--if they did it out of recognized forms of "hate" seems difficult, too. Why is it necessary? Isn't punishing the crime the issue? Yes, I'd like it if people didn't hate, but the hate wasn't criminal, why does it add to the punishment of the crime?

These people are either lawfully assembling or they're not. They're either acting within the law or they're not. What's printed on their signs shouldn't matter.

Here's an irony: I think this bunch of kooks aided gay rights tremendously. Their behavior was so heinous it made whatever objections other people might have simply tame in comparison. I'd rather they didn't do it, but it may have--weirdly--helped.
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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby Oregon » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:57 pm

johann wrote: Silly me - over-the-moon happy - to live in Canada.
Johann


Silly you - I guess you don't drive over bridges.

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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby johann » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:46 pm

Oregon wrote:Silly you - I guess you don't drive over bridges. http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/st ... 75041.html

Oregon wrote:The insidious things in Canada are Human Rights Commissions whose main function is the removal of human rights from white males, the only target.

Yep - and Laszlo Mihaly, Ezra Levant's winner of the Human Rights jackpot is -- a white, middle-aged male! :mrgreen:

Oregon wrote:Almost no-one has been convicted under Canada's hate speech law - what is it one conviction in 50 years?

Well, there's Jim Keegstra and Ernst Zündel, for two convictions, anyway. The late David Ahenakew was tried and acquitted twice. I look at it as a mercy-acquittal of someone who wasn't the brightest of people and got himself into a hole much deeper than he thought. It did, however, cost him his Order of Canada award. He was stripped of that in 2005.

Many of the dismissals were on cases before -- you guessed it, those evil Human Rights Commissions. :mrgreen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby johann » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:03 pm

There's also the fact that David Ahenakew was a First Nations person - an Aboriginal Canadian, so your "remove the rights from white males" theory doesn't hold up on that one, either.

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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby Oregon » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:50 pm

johann wrote:There's also the fact that David Ahenakew was a First Nations person - an Aboriginal Canadian, so your "remove the rights from white males" theory doesn't hold up on that one, either.

Johann


An Indian found innocent of any question before any court or legal entity - kinda proves my point.
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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby Oregon » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:56 pm

johann wrote:Well, there's Jim Keegstra and Ernst Zündel, for two convictions, anyway.

Johann


Zundel wasn't actually convicted of anything on this side of the Atlantic.
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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby johann » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:10 pm

Zundel wasn't actually convicted of anything on this side of the Atlantic.

Yeah - he was, more than once. But I'll allow that the convictions were later overturned on appeal. He also spent a couple of years in jail on a security certificate, which was upheld. And yes, you're right. He was later convicted in Germany and sentenced to five years.

He was also denied Canadian citizenship. His is a completely horrible story - but for anyone who wants to know more, here's something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel

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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby Oregon » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:22 pm

So - one conviction under the "hate law" and the only reason that succeeded was that he was a teacher and the hate spiel was to his students which pushed a few too many buttons. Mind you, the guy was an auto mechanic with a year of university teaching high school social studies, kind of a bad fit.

Ahenakew wasn't convicted of anything because one is allowed to have any opinion but spreading it must be more than simply voicing your opinion, in his case to a reporter.
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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby nosborne48 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:16 pm

Us "Unitedstatesians" have struggled with hate speech laws for years. But the so-called Left Wing at least really means it. My beloved ACLU has defended the KKK on this issue. I don't know whether the GOP would feel the same way but I think they would. It's pretty well hard wired into us from birth.

But getting back to Phelps, I wonder if he ever understood that his insistence on exercising his free speech rights put him in the same camp with Larry Flynt?

Probably he did.
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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby SteveFoerster » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:41 pm

nosborne48 wrote:Us "Unitedstatesians" have struggled with hate speech laws for years. But the so-called Left Wing at least really means it. My beloved ACLU has defended the KKK on this issue. I don't know whether the GOP would feel the same way but I think they would. It's pretty well hard wired into us from birth.

I don't think the left is unified on this issue. There those on the left whose commitment to civil liberties is strong, like the ACLU, and there are "critical theory" types whose collectivist outlook takes precedent.
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Re: Rev. Fred Phelps dying

Postby nosborne48 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:40 pm

You mean like the Harvard Law School professors who "identify" with the struggles of the oppressed classes while drawing quarter million salaries from the single most elitist, ultra-rich oriented institution in American higher education?

Yeah, those guys don't seem to be very interested in Free Speech. For anyone else, that is.
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