Ukraine conflict

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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby levicoff » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:42 am

Oregon wrote:Have the DegreeDiscussion Pinkos not yet figured out...


The DegreeDiscussion Pinkos?

Hmmmmm . . . I almost like that. Good name if we ever form a football team.

Nonetheless, I can't help thinking that Eric and Oregon would make a great gay couple. :lol:
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Eric » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:49 am

When in 2014 and 2016 Dem's be booted out, indeed gay - "joyful" we will be :-).

Now lets educate the Ph.D. behind-the-wheel.
The word gay arrived in English during the 12th century from Old French gai, most likely deriving ultimately from a Germanic source.
For most of its life in English, the word's primary meaning was "joyful".

As to Ukraine, my birth country, I was born in a town that once was Astro-Hungarian empire.
Green fertile land.
The collectivization by the Communists who established a Socialism indeed cause millions to starve, a lot of people who lived in these parts thought that its better to be under Germany then under Stalin.
For my Jewish family it was bad eider whey, but I do think commis were much more friendlier to Jews then Nazis.
Eric

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President Ronald Reagan
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Roald » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:08 am

So apparently a referendum will be held later this month in which Crimeans will decide whether to become an independent state, that is, a Russian puppet. One thing is clear: no matter what, Crimea will no longer be a part of Ukraine. The population is majority Russian, and Putin will make sure that he gets the result he's looking for anyway.

Annexation by referendum, I suppose.

Putin truly has no shame. I would almost respect him more if he would just simply annex the peninsula. But this cynical, sham referendum accompanied by propaganda touting the "democratic nature" of the process and how we must "respect the will of the people" is too much. Poor Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby SteveFoerster » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:37 pm

Roald wrote:So apparently a referendum will be held later this month in which Crimeans will decide whether to become an independent state, that is, a Russian puppet.

I believe the referendum is to switch from being part of Ukraine to go back to being part of Russia, which they were until 1954.

One thing is clear: no matter what, Crimea will no longer be a part of Ukraine. The population is majority Russian, and Putin will make sure that he gets the result he's looking for anyway. Annexation by referendum, I suppose. Putin truly has no shame. I would almost respect him more if he would just simply annex the peninsula. But this cynical, sham referendum accompanied by propaganda touting the "democratic nature" of the process and how we must "respect the will of the people" is too much. Poor Ukraine.

I don't really have a dog in this race, but just for fun I'll play devil's advocate here: Who says it will be a sham referendum? Even the Western media admit that the majority of Crimeans would rather be part of Russia than Ukraine. Why would they hold a bogus referendum when a fair one would produce the same results without the bad PR? I mean, people in Quebec, South Sudan, Scotland, and Catalonia hold referenda on self-determination. Czechoslovakia split up amicably in the '90s. Why all of them but not people in Crimea?
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Roald » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:45 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:I don't really have a dog in this race, but just for fun I'll play devil's advocate here: Who says it will be a sham referendum?


I actually agree with you, and I should clarify my comments. The majority of Crimeans, I believe 60%, are ethnic Russians and will likely vote for unification with Russia.

The "sham" I'm referring to is the very nature of the referendum, rather than it's process. It is a sham for one country to invade another and then hold a referendum designed to benefit the invader, regardless of local sentiment. No country has a right to call elections or hold referenda in another independent, sovereign state contrary to that state's wishes and constitution.
I suppose this would be analogous to Mexico invading the Rio Grande region and asking the majority Latino population of they'd like to rejoin Mexico. We certainly wouldn't stand for that, would we? Why should the Ukrainians? It's an impermissible meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Roald » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:55 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:I believe the referendum is to switch from being part of Ukraine to go back to being part of Russia, which they were until 1954.


Yes, you're right. The referendum is for reunification. The first reports I read were unclear, some said it was about reunification with Russia, others said it would be about independence.

Ukraine's history is complex. They have not always been a part of Russia. They have at various times been a part of Poland, Lithuania, Russia, or sovereign. Today, they are a sovereign nation and should be treated as such.

Many Ukrainians are deeply resentful of the way they have been treated by Russia: collectivization resulting in famine, exploitation, second class status. Russia may consider Ukraine a part of Russia, but Ukrainians don't necessarily share that view.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby SteveFoerster » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:33 pm

I guess the question is why some lines on the map should be treated as magically unchangeable, and others should not. What's special about the area called Ukraine that majority rule there is more important than majority rule in the area called Crimea? It's awfully arbitrary.

And regarding your example of the American Southwest, if unilateral secession isn't legitimate and international borders are immutable, then wouldn't that mean that Texas should be returned to Mexican administration?

Personally, not that it's a wonderful-sounding choice, I guess I'd rather be ruled from Kiev than Moscow (regardless of what my neighbors would prefer). I'm only being "difficult" here because the idea that countries have rights sticks in my craw, to me rights are solely for individuals.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby johann » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:41 pm

"I liked it so much I invaded the country."

This is the ONLY picture of Vladimir Putin I ever liked. At the risk of being slagged for car-talk out-of-turn, I'll note that:

(1) This is Putin with his very own (Ukrainian-made) 1972 Zaporozhets - low-powered, but cool anyway.
(2) This is the off-topic forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Putin ... ozhets.jpg

I thought it deserved a caption similar to Victor Kiam's old Remington razor ads. "I liked it so much I bought the company." :mrgreen:

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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby SteveFoerster » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:49 pm

I can scarcely recognize him, he's wearing a shirt. :wink:
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby johann » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:53 pm

Steve Foerster wrote:... the idea that countries have rights sticks in my craw, to me rights are solely for individuals.

But the country is made up of all those individuals, Steve...
Perhaps the word isn't exactly popular - especially in Ukraine - but there are, as I see it, individual rights and collective rights.

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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby SteveFoerster » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:25 pm

johann wrote:
Steve Foerster wrote:... the idea that countries have rights sticks in my craw, to me rights are solely for individuals.

But the country is made up of all those individuals, Steve...

By definition, but that doesn't convey anything magical that's missing at the individual level. If something is wrong for one person to do, it's still wrong even if a lot of people do it or a lot of people ask someone to do it.

Perhaps the word isn't exactly popular - especially in Ukraine - but there are, as I see it, individual rights and collective rights.

The problem is that things that people think of as "collective rights" may sound good, but they inevitably conflict with and diminish individual rights.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Jimmy » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 pm

Eric wrote:...Now lets educate the Ph.D. behind-the-wheel...



This is perhaps the most condescending statement ever made on DD. Dr. Levicoff has forgotten more than you have or will ever have learned. In my opinion, he is the most intelligent, well-educated, and thoughtful member of this Board.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Roald » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:07 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:I guess the question is why some lines on the map should be treated as magically unchangeable, and others should not. What's special about the area called Ukraine that majority rule there is more important than majority rule in the area called Crimea? It's awfully arbitrary.


Of course borders are not immutable, as history has shown time and time again. Countries are invaded and re-invaded, lines are drawn and redrawn. I agree, nothing new here.

However, that doesn't mean that it's the best way to do things. A considerable body of international law and opinion suggests that respecting the territorial sovereignty of independent nations, as well as their right to self determination, promotes stability and benefits the international community.

Wars for territorial acquisition are less common now that at almost any point in history. They do still happen, and nations have learned to employ other less obvious tactics to achieve their geopolitical goals. But the days of Napoleonic style conquests are, for the most part, gone.

Since WWII the trend in most foreign policy circles has been towards de-colonization, self determination, and cooperation.

In 1994 Russia, in line with the modern trend, agreed to respect Ukraine's territorial sovereignty in exchange for access to Sebastopol and nuclear disarmament. Russia has broken it's own promise and contributed to regional instability. This is why it's move on Ukraine is viewed as so egregious.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Jimmy » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:14 pm

Eric wrote:...the collectivization by the Communists who established a Socialism indeed cause millions to starve, a lot of people who lived in these parts thought that its better to be under Germany then under Stalin...


The word "socialism" is not a word that means the same thing to all people and in fact has various meanings. It is NOT synonymous with "communism." The so-called "socialism" under Stalin was bitterly condemned by U. S. Socialists and still is. The Socialist Party, USA, opposes both "communism" and "capitalism." And, many of the laws on the books in America--equal rights, women's suffrage, unemployment insurance, child labor laws, etc.--FIRST appeared in the Socialist Party platforms. My guess is that you have benefitted and will continue to benefit from socialist ideas.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Roald » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:51 am

Jimmy wrote:The so-called "socialism" under Stalin was bitterly condemned by U. S. Socialists and still is.


I believe that a fair number of U.S. leftists were actually naïve supporters of Stalin in the 1930s and 40s. Many American and European labor leaders, socialists, and communists travelled to Russia during that time and were treated to dog and pony shows. At that time, knowledge of the purges and gulags was not widespread outside of Russia. After the 1950s, things changed.

George Orwell wrote quite a bit about the phenomenon of Western leftwing support for Stalin.
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