Ukraine conflict

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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Jimmy » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:33 pm

The Holy Scriptures state "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."--Matthew 24:6.

Whether one believes the Bible or not, who can argue with this? And why do we keep thinking "one more war will end all wars?" Wilson (allegedly) thought this and how many wars have we had since?
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby SteveFoerster » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:36 am

nosborne48 wrote:But there are "abused" Russian ethnic minorities in other parts of the former Soviet Union and Russian Empire such as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Seizing Lithuania and Latvia would give Vlad land access to Kaliningrad, currently an isolated exclave but a potentially important port city. If I lived in one of the Baltic States, I'd be very nervous right now.

The Baltic countries are all NATO members. Invading one of them starts the third world war and Putin knows it.

He seems to believe that invading Eastern Ukraine wouldn't start it. And he's probably right.

The question no one seems to ask, though, is whether the Ukrainian-majority part of Ukraine might ultimately be better off without the Russian-majority part of Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby johann » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:49 am

SteveFoerster wrote:The question no one seems to ask, though, is whether the Ukrainian-majority part of Ukraine might ultimately be better off without the Russian-majority part of Ukraine.

That's difficult to answer, Steve, because it comes down to individuals and families - not statistics & numbers. I imagine it could cause the same sadness and isolation felt by North and South Koreans with family ties to the other region.

It's not likely it would be a friendly Czech Republic - Slovak Republic type of split, where everybody still visits everyone else, as usual. Optimistically, it might be like the former East/West Germany ..and that ain't good, either. :sad:

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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby nosborne48 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:47 pm

They are NATO members, yes. So what? The nuclear calculus I describe still applies. Expanding NATO to Russia's borders and including former USSR components into the alliance was unwise I think because it fed the Bear's paranoia.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Rich Douglas » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:39 pm

When the Nazis came to power, the industrialists in Germany supported them, thinking the Nazis were good for business.

In 1960, Eisenhower warned about the military-industrial complex becoming too powerful. It did, and remains hugely influential regarding U.S. foreign policy.

When the industrialists in the Soviet Union became convinced the USSR's form of communism created an unsustainable economy, they felled it.

Ask: is Putin good for Russian business? Does taking back Crimea and invading the Ukraine make it better or worse? That's the question. I don't know the answer, but the response to all of this should be economic and political, not military. Energy will have a big role in this. It's hard to push back on a bully when he's your pusher.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby nosborne48 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:55 pm

Noted. But current Russia is a fascist state. Nationalism is rampant and turning violent with the active support of the government. There comes a time when the ever-stupid capitalist oligarchy loses control of its pet monster. We're here, I fear.
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Jimmy » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:01 pm

Good interview with Bernie Sanders as he speaks about Putin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... O4Ko-v-q0g
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby johann » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:36 pm

Rich Douglas wrote:Energy will have a big role in this. It's hard to push back on a bully when he's your pusher.

Energy certainly will have a big role, probably in more ways than one. Whenever a nearby country contemplates crossing Putin, he pulls the "gas card." In the past, he's threatened to cut off the gas for heating that Russia sells to Baltic countries, if they didn't kow-tow. Recently, Putin made the same threat to Ukraine - Go with Europe and freeze, or snuggle up and keep warm with the Russian Bear. :(

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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Rich Douglas » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:07 pm

Rich Douglas wrote:When the Nazis came to power, the industrialists in Germany supported them, thinking the Nazis were good for business.

In 1960, Eisenhower warned about the military-industrial complex becoming too powerful. It did, and remains hugely influential regarding U.S. foreign policy.

When the industrialists in the Soviet Union became convinced the USSR's form of communism created an unsustainable economy, they felled it.

Ask: is Putin good for Russian business? Does taking back Crimea and invading the Ukraine make it better or worse? That's the question. I don't know the answer, but the response to all of this should be economic and political, not military. Energy will have a big role in this. It's hard to push back on a bully when he's your pusher.


Well, that didn't take long: http://www.salon.com/2014/03/15/crimea_ ... d_partner/
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Re: Ukraine conflict

Postby Jimmy » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:37 pm

ANOTHER TAKE

Statement Against US/NATO Intervention in Ukraine
passed by the SPUSA National Action Committee 3/5/2014


The Socialist Party USA explicitly condemns any NATO or U.S. involvement in the developing Ukraine crisis, which includes the shipment of arms to Poland, who has invoked Article 4 of the NATO Treaty, which states that "any Ally can request consultations whenever, in the opinion of any of them, their territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened." We have a living example highlighting the disastrous effects of U.S. and NATO involvement with Afghanistan, and we are urging in the strongest terms possible that the United States and/or NATO avoid repeating the same mistake regarding the Ukraine crisis. Ukraine peace will not be achieved through foreign aggression.

The Socialist Party USA also calls for Russian troops to withdraw immediately from currently occupied areas and to halt any proposed intervention. Aggression will only aggravate the crisis and Ukraine citizens deserve a peaceful solution.

AND YET ANOTHER

http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/ne ... ussia.html
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Re: Ukraine conflict

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