Fantasy Land

Discussions on the value or merit of unaccredited programs and institutions.

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Dexter Dexter » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:13 pm

nosborne48 wrote:Sorry, Dr. Bear...a criminal conviction means only guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond all possible doubt." I'm sure that will leave D-D enough wiggle room.


Why would I need wiggle room? His case and plea is immaterial to whether the school is a diploma mill. The legal qualifier for diploma mill is a school which requires little or no education coursework. The qualifier is not "if the president committed fraud."

It does not matter if the school was located in a bedroom, had a dog listed as the dean, or ran basket weaving classes. It does not matter if the president defrauded the IRS, stole money from students, or made misrepresentations about his school. So long as the students did a lot of work for their degree then it is not a diploma mill degree. Any judge will agree that your interpretation of the definition is wrong. The definition is not concerned with quality of the material, the ethics or quality of the president, or the quality of the instructors.

Why do you continue to deny basic facts?
Dexter Dexter
Member
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:48 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Gus Sainz » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:06 pm

Dexter Dexter wrote:The legal qualifier for diploma mill is a school which requires little or no education coursework. The qualifier is not "if the president committed fraud."


I agree. LaSalle University did not REQUIRE any education or coursework, therefore it is a DIPLOMA MILL.

Dexter Dexter wrote:So long as the students did a lot of work for their degree then it is not a diploma mill degree.


Wait a freakin' minute. Where the hell did you get that definition?

Dexter Dexter wrote:Why do you continue to deny basic facts?


Seems like you are indeed posting in the correct thread, "Fantasy Land."

Let me share a story (well-known to long time followers of distance education fora). Although this individual is the original source of all this information, names have been omitted to protect the guilty.

A very nice (or so I am told) older gentleman wanted to validate some of his life experiences. He had no real academic degrees, not even a Bachelors degree. Vocationally, he had some experience in mechanical drafting (he has since referred to “drafting” as “engineering”).

One day, he applied to City and Guilds in the UK (where he was from) for a qualification. Due to the lack of a legitimate degree, he was turned down.

This individual spent countless hours writing a husbandry manual for an endangered species (he wanted to restore the population to the point it could be hunted again). It was mostly material already published elsewhere by others and included no real innovative scientific research, but it was a voluminous piece of work, nonetheless, and even served a public purpose.

He then paid his fee to a notorious diploma mill for a doctorate. This diploma mill didn’t require any real work from anyone, but he submitted his manual nonetheless. After receiving his fake degree, he touted his accomplishment on various distance learning fora.

Imagine his surprise when no one was impressed, and instead, mocked his fake degree and the diploma mill that awarded it. He insisted that since he did a lot of work for his “book” the degree was real and so was the “institution” that awarded it. No one agreed.

This individual then freely gave copies of his “manual” to members of distance education fora who, although they issued disclaimers that they were not experts in the field, said they were impressed by the amount of work he put into the publication. That is when an unscrupulous owner of another diploma mill thought he could benefit from such a positive assessment from the distance education experts and offered this piteous older gentleman a free doctorate from his diploma mill. The gentleman farmer, desperate for any kind of recognition, jumped at the opportunity.

In true diploma mill fashion, our gentleman farmer was duped into thinking the process , “institution” and degree were real. He was so deluded (or disingenuous) that he did not acknowledge it unusual that he was first awarded a degree in Zoology, but, as this did not meet his needs, at his behest, with no further process than the stroke of the pen by the diploma mill owner, it was changed to a doctorate in Environmental Management.

The point is that the same volume of work, no matter how well-written or not, no matter how many times it was submitted to different ( a fact that would, by itself, would void its legitimacy) “institution” would NEVER be able to make these entities credible or legitimate.

Let me repeat something I first said many years ago. The value of a diploma mill degree is in direct proportion to the willingness of the recipient of said degree to lie, cheat, and deceive.

Hold that thought in mind. I will conclude this story in my next post.
Gus Sainz
Moderator
DegreeDiscussion.com
Gus Sainz
Administrator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Gus Sainz » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:02 am

Our story resumes with our knightly gentleman farmer, now armed with not one, but two, diploma mill degrees having to decide what to do with them. Contrary to what many espouse, most individuals who purchase fraudulent degrees, don’t do so strictly for vanity. Most actually expect some kind of return on their investment.

First, although he vigorously touted their legitimacy for some time, he wisely drops any reference to the first, extremely blatant, degree mill, choosing instead to “put all his eggs in one basket” and ally himself with the second (a bit more discreet, although still seeking publicity) diploma mill. That diploma mill unwisely chooses to promote his “manual” as an example (the only example?) that they require real work and therefore are legitimate. This decision will contribute greatly to the scrutiny and downfall of this diploma mill; the local press features them in various articles, exposes them as a degree mill, and ultimately forces them to shut down.

Then, undeterred, our Quixotic knight decides to extract the maximum utility from his diploma mill degree. He reapplies to City and Guild, this time claiming his fraudulent academic degree. City and Guilds (undergoing a restructuring at the time) fails to do its due diligence as to the legitimacy of his claim, and grants him the award.

He then applies to the local government for a grant for the charitable organization he established, and it is granted on the basis of his bogus academic credentials. Monies are granted to plant 10,000 trees on environmentally sensitive wetlands. And why not? He does have Ph.D. in Environmental Management, right? He does have a City and Guilds award, right? Ooops... Did they neglect to notice that he owns those same wetlands and that government (i.e taxpayers) funds are going to be used to enhance the value of private property?

Did anyone look into this? Of course not. Political connections and contributions (funded by gun sales) ensured that instead of an investigation, the government awarded our selfless, well-educated, intrepid knight doctor gentleman farmer one of its highest honors. Arise Sir Knight!

So, after “achieving” so much, where did our esteemed “doctor” go? Why, to yet another diploma mill for yet another fraudulent degree, of course. We have seen this time and time again. For some individuals, fake degrees, titles, curtain rods, and credentials are like crack: they can never get enough.

This just proves that diploma mill degrees aren’t completely worthless. However, like I said, the value of these degrees is in direct proportion to the willingness of the recipient of said degree to lie, cheat, and deceive.
Gus Sainz
Moderator
DegreeDiscussion.com
Gus Sainz
Administrator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Bill Huffman » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:06 am

Gus Sainz wrote:I believe that the word whose meaning eludes you (and that you conveniently omitted in your comments) is "REQUIRES." Diploma mills don't REQUIRE a meaningful amount of education or coursework. Nothing, however, prevents some poor deluded sap from doing any amount of work over that required , either because he genuinely doesn't understand the true nature of the "institution" or because he wants to, somehow, assuage his guilt. No amount of work, from any single individual, will make a diploma mill a legitimate institution.

For those of us in the United States, the deadline has just passed for submitting our federal income tax returns. Most of us, I am sure, paid the IRS what they REQUIRED us to pay. Nothing prevented any of us from paying MORE than what was required. However, contributing more than what was required, no matter how much more, will NOT magically transform the IRS into a charitable institution.


I loved this story/analogy. I'll be chuckling most of the weekend on that one. :lol:
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby johann » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:25 am

Gus Sainz wrote:For some individuals, fake degrees, titles, curtain rods, and credentials are like crack: they can never get enough.

Amen, Brother Gus, Amen! Fine sermon! And what treatment is there for these addicts? "Degreehab," perhaps? :)

Johann
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Dexter Dexter » Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:43 am

Gus Sainz wrote:
Dexter Dexter wrote:The legal qualifier for diploma mill is a school which requires little or no education coursework. The qualifier is not "if the president committed fraud."


I agree. LaSalle University did not REQUIRE any education or coursework, therefore it is a DIPLOMA MILL.


The degrees they gave out for zero work are obviously diploma mill degrees.

The degrees they gave out for lots of coursework are obviously not diploma mill degrees.

Recall, the definition is "little or no". Any degree given out for little or now work is a diploma mill degree. Any degree given out for a lot of work is not.

Dexter Dexter wrote:So long as the students did a lot of work for their degree then it is not a diploma mill degree.


Wait a freakin' minute. Where the hell did you get that definition?


That's the federal definition! Hello! A school which provides degrees for little or no education or coursework is a diploma mill.

Otherwise, it is not.

Dexter Dexter wrote:Why do you continue to deny basic facts?


Seems like you are indeed posting in the correct thread, "Fantasy Land."

Let me share a story...


That's a nice story Gus, but you are wrong once again. A Diploma Mill isn't a school which requires a lot of work and then passes you regardless of what you write or whether you are qualified. A diploma mill is not a school which puts fake grades on your dissertation. A diploma mill isn't a school which willing to change your major with the flick of a wrist. That is all unethical, sure. It might not be a legitimate process, granted. But it is not a diploma mill. A diploma mill is defined as a school which requires LITTLE OR NO EDUCATION OR COURSEWORK. That's how it's defined. That's all it's defined as. This is how the law sees it. There is no denying this. There is no working around this.

Why are you ignoring the legal definition for diploma mill? The law has defined diploma mill very clearly. It's not a school where everyone passes. It's not a school where the president was convicted of fraud. Anyone who continues to maintain these things has clearly not read the definition for Diploma Mill.

Why are you putting your imagination in place of facts? Why do you have such a hard time reading a few sentences in a definition?

Please stop trying to change definitions. You seem to be trying to lump unethical or substandard schools with diploma mills. A diploma mill isn't a school with lousy teachers, bad instruction, easy A's, or criminal presidents. Those are unethical schools. A diploma mill is a school with LITTLE OR NO EDUCATION OR COURSEWORK. What is so infuriatingly hard to understand about that?

If Holbrook did a lot of work for is LaSalle University degree, as he claims, reading books and writing thousands of pages, then he most certainly does not have a diploma mill degree under the eyes of the law. The legal definition has nothing to do with the validity of his education, proper supervision, or ethical instructors. It is chiefly concerned with "little or no".

Any competent judge would agree that Holbrook does not have a diploma mill degree under federal definition. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows how to read definitions. I don't know what your problem is.
Dexter Dexter
Member
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:48 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Gus Sainz » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:14 am

You never answered my question, Dexter. I guess you don't think a degree from Knightsbridge University is legitimate or has any value. :roll:

Let me ask you another question.

Do you really want to be permanently banned from this forum? Please think carefully about this one.

I really have very little tolerance for inanities, trolls, the chronically immature or the galactically stupid. Govern yourself accordingly as you won’t get another warning.
Gus Sainz
Moderator
DegreeDiscussion.com
Gus Sainz
Administrator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Dexter Dexter » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:20 am

Gus Sainz wrote:You never answered my question, Dexter. I guess you don't think a degree from Knightsbridge University is legitimate or has any value. :roll:

Let me ask you another question.

Do you really want to be permanently banned from this forum? Please think carefully about this one.

I really have very little tolerance for inanities, trolls, the chronically immature or the galactically stupid. Govern yourself accordingly as you won’t get another warning.


I'm not trolling. I'm telling it how it is.

Your definition of "diploma mill" is clearly in disagreement with the legal and federal definition. Why would you ban someone because you were wrong?
Dexter Dexter
Member
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:48 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Gus Sainz » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:34 am

Dexter Dexter wrote:
Gus Sainz wrote:You never answered my question, Dexter. I guess you don't think a degree from Knightsbridge University is legitimate or has any value. :roll:

Let me ask you another question.

Do you really want to be permanently banned from this forum? Please think carefully about this one.

I really have very little tolerance for inanities, trolls, the chronically immature or the galactically stupid. Govern yourself accordingly as you won’t get another warning.


I'm not trolling. I'm telling it how it is.

Your definition of "diploma mill" is clearly in disagreement with the legal and federal definition. Why would you ban someone because you were wrong?


You are either incredibly stupid or think we are. Bye bye.
Gus Sainz
Moderator
DegreeDiscussion.com
Gus Sainz
Administrator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Soapboxmom » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:17 am

This thread is comedic gold. If I may be the Paul Harvey of the thread, I would like to share the rest of the story. My dear colleague Craig Malisow wrote a superb article, but he had to keep it a reasonable length, so he couldn't add all the juicy details about Don Holbrook's La Salle University adventures.

Here is another article addressing Holbrook's degrees or lack thereof and his comment talking about himself in the third person which is just a little creepy:
http://pvtimes.com/news/newspaper-artic ... ers-resum/
economic developer says: February 15, 2012 at 5:50 pm
In America we don’t give rumors and opinions credence when they are not factual. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that does not mean it factual. With regard to Don Hokbrook, the facts are he was wrongfully terminated by the Red Wing Port Authority under an allegation of resume fraud. He was given a public apology by that agency and they were made by the courts to admit they were wrong and paid j
Him approximately $100,000 for their false assertion.
Holbrook did not mail money into La Salle and receive a degree he turned in a thousand plus pages of online curriculum assignments including a 100 page Masters thesis and nearly 200 page doctoral dissertation to his assigned professors and it took him 4 years to do the work. The FBI issues a statement to all of the thousands of professional students telling them they had been fraudulently misled and it was no fault of the students. Holbrook immediately reported it to his employer and took the degrees off his resume. His employer told him it had no bearing on his own character or expertise and closed the issue. The other claims by the newspaper are just patently false. He has not been discharged ever for any spending or other wrong doings. He choose to not renew his contract in Lake Havasu on good terms so he could move closer to his parents. He has no disgruntled employers or failed projects, that is a fact.
He has won virtually every award in his industry for his achievements and has every prof essional certification including being awarded the industries most prestigious award of “Fellow Member” in 2008 for his lifetime of professional achievements by his more than 4500 peers.

So neither newspaper has told the facts. He is an integritous man, well respected by his peers with remarkable skills, knowledge and expertise in the field of economic development, with no failed projects. He was asked due to this to help get the EarthQuest project headed back in the right direction, and it is doing so now. Holbrook feels EMCID is acting correctly and appropriately to get that project in a position to succeed. He has been acting as a consultant to them in this regard because at no fault of EMCID or Holbrook, the previous developer failed to perform… But many others failed as well in 2008-2009 due to the global financial crisis.
Lastly Holbrook has never told the town of Pahrump they could attract a theme park. Rather he believes that Contour’s recommendation of a world class destination project is right on the mark and compliments the other major attractions and will attract new visitors to Pahrump to do unique tourism opportunities not available or easily replicated in Vegas. These are the real facts.

Soapboxmom
Soapboxmom
New Member
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Soapboxmom » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:24 am

The following two posts contain all the minutes from the Red Wing meeting:

http://www.realscam.com/f11/iedc-intern ... #post20999

http://www.realscam.com/f11/iedc-intern ... #post21000

http://pvtimes.com/news/newspaper-artic ... /#comments
Holbrook’s employment history was also put under a microscope by the Texas newspaper.

According to the article, he was hired and fired on numerous occasions and rang up thousands of dollars in dining, lodging, and travel expenses.

In some instances, he was on the job for less than two years.
The article stated that in 1996, Holbrook was hired by the Port Authority in Red Wing, Minnesota and was subsequently fired in 1998 for questionable spending practices and falsifying his resume.

economic developer says: February 15, 2012 at 5:50 pm
In America we don’t give rumors and opinions credence when they are not factual. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that does not mean it factual. With regard to Don Hokbrook, the facts are he was wrongfully terminated by the Red Wing Port Authority under an allegation of resume fraud. He was given a public apology by that agency and they were made by the courts to admit they were wrong and paid j
Him approximately $100,000 for their false assertion.
Holbrook did not mail money into La Salle and receive a degree he turned in a thousand plus pages of online curriculum assignments including a 100 page Masters thesis and nearly 200 page doctoral dissertation to his assigned professors and it took him 4 years to do the work. The FBI issues a statement to all of the thousands of professional students telling them they had been fraudulently misled and it was no fault of the students. Holbrook immediately reported it to his employer and took the degrees off his resume. His employer told him it had no bearing on his own character or expertise and closed the issue. The other claims by the newspaper are just patently false. He has not been discharged ever for any spending or other wrong doings. He choose to not renew his contract in Lake Havasu on good terms so he could move closer to his parents. He has no disgruntled employers or failed projects, that is a fact.


The Red Wing meeting minutes conflict with that account, Holbrook:
...because of that
information Mr. Holbrook says he believed his diplomas would reflect a
completion date of 1991 for the MEA and 1994 for the Ph.D. Present university
policy would prohibit this. His degrees would reflect the actual dates of
completion....Commissioner Gorman noted that he was still using the
Ph.D, .....It is clear he did not have the degrees and it
certainly would not be current university policy for someone to use those
degrees until they have "completed their coursework",......In the February nth
letter (a week later) submitted by the same individual stated that Don Holbrook
first submitted his Master's thesis in 1991, so in the I" letter he states that it was
submitted in 1996 and the second time in 1991. He also said in that letter that
Mr. Holbrook was told in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996 to resubmit
his work which is inconsislent with Paragraph 10 E of Mr. Holbrook's affidavit
which states he did not learn he had to resubmit his papers until "months after
problems with La Salle University and the change of ownership in
administration" which according to La Salle occurred in July of 1997, These
facts are also inconsistent with Paragraph 10 M of his affidavit, which states that
after he learned his degrees had not been confirmed that he corrected his
statements on his educational status. What you have is, Mr. Holbrook had been
told annually from 1991 through 1996 that he has to resubmit his work. No
degree has been conferred and yet he continually represented himself as early as
1992 to Crookston that he had an MA in international marketing and to you in
1996 that he had an MBA and Ph,D., even though he had been continually told
year after year, you need to resubmit your work. You can draw your own
conclusion from that.......Mr. Holbrook has testified that La Salle University told him that he could use
the designations,

Not hard to discern the truth there, now is it.

I also note that Holbrook says he wasn't fired for any wrongdoings. What does he call completely misrepresenting his qualifications? How, about the background check folks admitting they did no work and refunding the money. The minutes also show he thought his contract was written so only he could fire people and that they must agree to separate with him and offer him the 6 months severance package he wanted. He also sought unemployment benefits which it appears were denied. No doubt he is going to silence his critics by publishing all the court documents related to this in their entirety on Google Docs or the like. I will certainly be waiting!

Soapboxmom
Soapboxmom
New Member
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Soapboxmom » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:33 am

And, if you haven't fallen out of your chair in a fit of laughter, Don Holbrook is suing me, Heather Dobrott, and all of you John and Jane Does who dared speak out about him on the internet. The warden of the internet, Don Holbrook has declared that none shall post.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs ... eights.php

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs ... hquest.php

PLAINTIFF
CITY OF HUBER HEIGHTS OHIO
6131 TAYLORSVILLE ROAD
HUBER HEIGHTS OH 45424
ATTORNEY(S)
L. MICHAEL BLY
2700 KETTERING TOWER
DAYTON OH 45423

DEFENDANT
DON ALLEN HOLBROOK LLC
9200 DALMAHOY PLACE
LAS VEGAS NV 89145
ATTORNEY(S)
SUE SEEBERGER
5975 KENTSHIRE DRIVE, SUITE D
DAYTON OH 45440-4264

3RD PARTY PLAINTIFF
DON ALLEN HOLBROOK LLC
AN ARIZONA LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY
9200 DALMAHOY PLACE
LAS VEGAS NV 89145
9200 DALMAHOY PLACE
LAS VEGAS NV 89145
ATTORNEY(S)
SUE SEEBERGER
5975 KENTSHIRE DRIVE, SUITE D
DAYTON OH 45440-4264

3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
HEATHER DOBROTT
AKA: SOAPBOX MOM
2518 SUNCREST DRIVE
GARLAND TX 75044-7032
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE

3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
CRAIG MALISOW
CO THE HOUSTON PRESS
HOUSTON TX 77002
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE
3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
HOUSTON PRESS
DBA: HOUSTON PRESS LP
DBA: VILLAGE VOICE MEDIA HOLDINGS LLC
DBA: BACKPAGE.COM LLC
REGISTERED AGENT
NATIONAL REGISTERED AGENTS INC
300 W CLARENDON AVE SUITE 230
PHEONIX AZ 85013
1201 E JEFFERSON ST
PHOENIX AZ 85034
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE

3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
PAHRUMP VALLEY TIMES
DBA: STEPHENS MEDIA GROUP
DBA: STEPHENS MEDIA LLC
P O BOX 70
LAS VEGAS NV 89125-0192
2160 E CALVADA BLVD
PAHRUMP NV 89125
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE

3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
CYNTHIA CALVERT INDIVIDUAL
1036 FIRST ST SUITE C
HUMBLE TX 77338
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE
3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
CYNTHIA CALVERT EDITOR PUBLISHER CHIEF EXEC OFFICER
THE TRIBUNE AKA OUR TRIBUNE.COM
1036 FIRST ST SUITE C
HUMBLE TX 77338
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE

3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
TRIBUNE
AKA: OURTRIBUNE.COM
1036 FIRST ST
SUITE C
HUMBLE TX 77338
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE
3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
JOHN AND OR JANE DOES
ADDRESS UNKNOWN
DAYTON OH 45422
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE

3RD PARTY DEFENDANT
DOE INC AND OR DOE LLC
ADDRESS UNKNOWN
DAYTON OH 45422
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE

DEFENDANT
FRANK MAURIZIO
581 CHINA STREET
PAHRUMP NV 89048
ATTORNEY(S)
NO ATTORNEY ON FILE

DEFENDANT
CRAIG MALISOW
CO THE HOUSTON PRESS
1621 MILAM STREET SUITE 100
HOUSTON TX 77002
ATTORNEY(S)
SUE SEEBERGER
5975 KENTSHIRE DRIVE, SUITE D
DAYTON OH 45440-4264
Soapboxmom
New Member
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby scottae316 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:24 am

It is real simple to end this discussion (other than closing the thread), a legitimate institution will require substantial work for a degree from all students. If it accepts payment and simply issues a degree there is no substantial work required by students, by the federal definition it is a degree mill. If it grants a degree to one student who simply write a check and grants a degree to another who does substantial work, it would still be a degree mill because it did not require work from ALL students.

One other point, the person who claims they did substantial work, what do they define it as. For some, that would be a 20 page paper.
scottae316
New Member
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 4:58 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby johann » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:12 pm

scottae316 wrote:It is real simple to end this discussion (other than closing the thread)...

If we're voting, I'll take closing the thread! You have again raised the spectre of "what is substantial work" - leaving us right back at the starting-gate. Of course, you and I can agree that one 20-page paper is nowhere near the "substantial work" needed to earn a legit degree -- but - as I'm sure you've seen from time to time - some nitwit will always protest that it is, or drivel on (irrelevantly) about 30-credit Excelsior GRE subject exams! Why leave such people an opening?

The "define substantial work" argument usually breaks down to "at what point can a mill be re-classified as grossly substandard or a quasi-mill?" That's one hair that I - for one - am tired of seeing split. Shame on all 3 categories! :(

Johann
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby scottae316 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:16 pm

johann wrote:
scottae316 wrote:It is real simple to end this discussion (other than closing the thread)...

If we're voting, I'll take closing the thread! You have again raised the spectre of "what is substantial work" - leaving us right back at the starting-gate. Of course, you and I can agree that one 20-page paper is nowhere near the "substantial work" needed to earn a legit degree -- but - as I'm sure you've seen from time to time - some nitwit will always protest that it is, or drivel on (irrelevantly) about 30-credit Excelsior GRE subject exams! Why leave such people an opening?

The "define substantial work" argument usually breaks down to "at what point can a mill be re-classified as grossly substandard or a quasi-mill?" That's one hair that I - for one - am tired of seeing split. Shame on all 3 categories! :(

Johann


I understand what you are saying, but I guess I did not make my point clear enough. If a school accepts money for an academic degree from "students" and requires no work from them, then by the Federal definition it is a degree mill regardless if they occasionally grant degrees to those who do work. The point is that in order to even be in the realm of legitimate schools they can't sell degrees, that was my point. My intention was not to raise what is substantial work, I only questioned if the person in the real thread did do substantial work by questioning the volume.
scottae316
New Member
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 4:58 am
Location: Pennsylvania

PreviousNext

Return to Unaccredited Programs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron