Fantasy Land

Discussions on the value or merit of unaccredited programs and institutions.

Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Dexter Dexter » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:38 pm

You're wrong, Gus. The federal government's legal definition is the only meaningful definition here. LaSalle doesn't even meet Webster dictionary's definition of "Diploma Mill."

An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless. – Webster's Third New International Dictionary


According to this definition the qualifier is that the school needs to be operating without a license and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or without proper standards.

However, LaSalle was operating with a state license under the auspices of Louisiana. Therefore, under the definition, it is not a diploma mill.
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby johann » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:45 pm

nosborne48 wrote:So tell me; does the Latin really translate? ...

No, Nosborne. That one word really doesn't...at least not exactly. Belua is actually generic for monster. Cicero used it. I've seen the Internet-age Latin word "troglodytus" used, but trolls live under bridges, not in caves, AFAIK. The word "ogre" comes indirectly from the Roman Orcus. He was an underworld God and his name was later used in Romance languages as "orco" and eventually "ogre" for a fearsome troll-like being. I think Shrek is an "ogro" in Portuguese.

BTW - I thought last night a more accurate translation might be: Noli beluam pascere. Better idiom.

Forgive me Magister, for I have sinned -
It has been 51 years since my last Latin lesson...
:)

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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby johann » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:15 pm

Nosborne -

You mentioned the concept of "troll" not being carried into in Yiddish or German. I'll refer you here to an interesting page, in which Isaac Bashevis Singer's son remarks about Swedish trolls and their similarities to demons in Jewish literature. I also came across some references equating trolls with golems -- but I think that's a bit far-fetched. Interestingly, though, the name of Gollum (in Tolkien's Hobbit & Lord of the RIngs) is thought to have been derived from "golem" - and that story-character is indeed quite trollish in nature.

You might find this interesting: http://books.google.ca/books?id=Qr3O9qI ... sh&f=false

Johann

PS - Shrek, as an ogre, is not a Yiddish or German fictional figure -- but his name is definitely recognizable in both languages. I'm sure you'll recognize it as meaning "horror." It's "Schreck" in German - "horrible" translates as "schrecklich." :)
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby nosborne48 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:41 pm

Oh, the CONCEPT of trolls and demons is present in Yiddish, more than present, it's pivotal. I merely meant that the WORD "troll" doesn't appear to my knowledge.

The one troll lived under a bridge; other trolls live in forests and caves. "In the Hall of the Mountain King" refers to the King of the Trolls.

Incidentally, there lives under one abutment of the Aurora Bridge in Seattle an enormous concrete Troll. His single eye is a hubcap and in his great left hand is a half-eaten VW Beetle once sporting, I'm delighted to say, a California license plate.

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2236
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby nosborne48 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:50 pm

Oh, and to D-D: You are right; the thread was hijacked at least in part through my question about proper terminology. A thousand pardons, but aren't troll-trolls much more interesting than internet-trolls? (Which, btw, I am not accusing you of being one.)
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby johann » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:28 pm

Nosborne -

I looked for "troll" in Yiddish and guess what - טראָלל Unless I'm mistaken, that's a komets-alef in the middle, so it's pronounced "troll."

Obviously a loan-word. :)

Johann
Last edited by johann on Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Gus Sainz » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:32 pm

Dexter Dexter wrote:You're wrong, Gus. The federal government's legal definition is the only meaningful definition here. LaSalle doesn't even meet Webster dictionary's definition of "Diploma Mill."

An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless. – Webster's Third New International Dictionary


According to this definition the qualifier is that the school needs to be operating without a license and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or without proper standards.

However, LaSalle was operating with a state license under the auspices of Louisiana. Therefore, under the definition, it is not a diploma mill.


"You know how to cut to the core of me Baxter. You're so wise. You're like a miniature Buddha, covered with hair." -- Ron Burgundy


Here's a quick test for you, Dexter. Answer correctly and you will qualify for a Ph.D. (in any discipline) from Knightsbridge University.

In order to be a degree mill apologist (or forum troll), you must:
A) be galactically stupid (or not care if you are regarded as such)
B) have a complete lack of regard for honesty or ethics
C) be a self-serving hypocrite
D) all of the above

Take your time. Consult some of your friends if need be. :roll:
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby nosborne48 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:33 pm

Or have an agenda?

I keep thinking that posters like D-D are themselves "poor saps" who sank thousands of dollars and thousands of hours into unaccredited degrees and are unwilling to understand that they've been duped and cheated. The basic logical fallacy seems to be something like this:

All legitimate universities require substantial work for their degrees

This student did substantial work for the degree he got from X University

QED: X University is legitimate.

and

All legitimate degrees require substantial work.

This student did substantial work for the degree he got from X University.

QED: The degree this student got from X University is legitimate.

I'm trying to remember the formal name for this error. Is it the undistributed middle?
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby John Bear » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:14 pm

johann: PS - Incidentally, the proprietor of La Salle was indicted for fraud and sentenced to 5 years in prison, in 1996. So much for the legitimacy.

John: A key fact here, which demolishes dexter's arguments, is that after James Kirk and two of his colleagues were indicted by a federal grand jury on multiple counts of mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud, and conspiracy, he pleaded guilty as charged.
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby nosborne48 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:37 pm

Sorry, Dr. Bear...a criminal conviction means only guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond all possible doubt." I'm sure that will leave D-D enough wiggle room.
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby johann » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:15 pm

nosborne48 wrote:I'm trying to remember the formal name for this error. Is it the undistributed middle?

After looking 'em up --- yeah, a case could be made for "undistributed middle." However, I think it could be the simple one called "accidental or sweeping generalization."

"All legit schools require hard work. I worked hard, so my school was legit."

The example of this logic error I read was:

"Cutting people is a crime. Surgeons cut people, so all surgeons are criminals."

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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby John Bear » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:48 pm

nosborne: "Sorry, Dr. Bear...a criminal conviction means only guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond all possible doubt."

John: But doesn't pleading guilty mean "beyond all possible doubt"?
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby johann » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:10 pm

John Bear wrote:John: But doesn't pleading guilty mean "beyond all possible doubt"?

That's what I thought too, at first -- but then again, he might have been lying! :)

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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby nosborne48 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:24 pm

No, it doesn't. It should, but it doesn't. Guilty pleas can be set aside even after sentencing for various reasons which may have nothing whatever to do with actual guilt. It's very strange but a guilty plea is nothing more than a confession and a confession is sometimes not enough to convict.
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Re: Fantasy Land

Postby Dexter Dexter » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:45 pm

John Bear wrote:johann: PS - Incidentally, the proprietor of La Salle was indicted for fraud and sentenced to 5 years in prison, in 1996. So much for the legitimacy.

John: A key fact here, which demolishes dexter's arguments, is that after James Kirk and two of his colleagues were indicted by a federal grand jury on multiple counts of mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud, and conspiracy, he pleaded guilty as charged.


It does not matter if James Kirk plead guilty for fraud. The definition is LITTLE OR NO EDUCATION OR COURSEWORK. The definition is not "if the president of the institution ever did time for fraud or tax evasion it's a diploma mill."

If some people did a lot of work for their degree then their degrees are not diploma mill degrees by legal and federal definition. This is absolutely indisputable.
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