Cherub College complains about ODA

Discussions on the value or merit of unaccredited programs and institutions.

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:57 pm

g-gollin wrote:But the ODA web site also says RA, so we're still missing one piece of the puzzle.

No - I think what I posted is pretty clear. The ODA itself may be missing the piece,though ... and it might come back to bite them.

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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:01 pm

nosborne48 wrote:...I wondered what ODA would do with a lawyer who qualified to take the Oregon Bar based on, say, a correspondence J.D. from the absolutely unapproved British-American University, a California law license, and five years of practice experience.

I'd love to see him/her become a judge and decide on the merits of any lawsuits filed against the ODA! :)

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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby SteveFoerster » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:44 pm

g-gollin wrote:But the ODA web site also says RA, so we're still missing one piece of the puzzle.

It's already been made clear that the ODA web site has errors. What's one more?
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:53 pm

Oh Steve, you are having an attitude attack!
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:11 pm

g-gollin wrote:But the ODA web site also says RA, so we're still missing one piece of the puzzle.


I believe that you're confused.

The ODA has a number of functions. Two of them are:

1. Approving degree programs to physically operate within the boundaries of the state of Oregon.

2. Regulating degree "use" within the state of Oregon.

These two functions are governed by different legislative statutes and different administrative rules. They involve different exemptions.

The Rules governing Approval of degree programs to legally operate in Oregon are here:

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/pages/rul ... 3_030.html

RA schools are exempted from having to have their degree programs approved by the ODA, but schools accredited by non-RA accreditors still must seek approval.

The Rules governing degree use in Oregon are here;

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/pages/rul ... 3_050.html

Individuals with degrees from schools accredited by any accreditor recognized by the US Secretary of Education are exempted from having to use the oregon non-accredited disclaimer.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:15 pm

Saying bad things about the ODA is easy - but I find it more pleasurable to say good things about Cherub College. I went back and finally found this piece on the Cherub website:

Cherub College alumni have continued their education at the Graduate and Undergraduate level at some of the world's top universities; including Duke University, Emory University, the University of Stellenbosch, the University of Oxford, the University of Cambridge, the University of Miami, New York University, Vassar College, Dartmouth College, Yale University, the University of California, London School of Economics and Political Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Boston University, the City University of New York, Stanford University, the University of the West Indies, the University of the Southern Caribbean, McGill University, the University of Toronto, the University of British Columbia, the University of Alberta, Simon Fraser University, the University of Calgary, the University of Waterloo, McMaster University, the University of Western Ontario, Dalhousie University, the University of Windsor, Princeton University, Cornell University, Vanderbilt University, the University of Heidelberg, the University of Copenhagen and the University of Helsinki; amongst many others. All of the universities have graduate alumni from Cherub College. (Emphasis mine - Johann)

Now if Cherub grads are good enough for ALL those very fine schools - and a lot of 'em, like MIT, LSE, McGill and Cornell are pretty pernickety - just why is the school (effectively) blacklisted in Oregon - and nowhere else? :(

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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:35 am

johann wrote:Now if Cherub grads are good enough for ALL those very fine schools - and a lot of 'em, like MIT, LSE, McGill and Cornell are pretty pernickety - just why is the school (effectively) blacklisted in Oregon - and nowhere else.


I'd be more impressed with Cherub if we weren't reading all these things on Cherub's own website.

Google only found one American .edu webpage that even mentions Cherub.
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So that explains why I do not understand Weyl curvature in 2

Postby g-gollin » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:38 am

Hungry Ghost wrote:I believe that you're confused.


OK-dokey.

Cherub isn't accredited by an accreditor recognized by USDE, or am I missing something?

ODA doesn't say that Cherub is a mill, or am I missing something?
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Postby Hungry Ghost » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:03 am

g-gollin wrote:
Hungry Ghost wrote:I believe that you're confused.


OK-dokey.

Cherub isn't accredited by an accreditor recognized by USDE, or am I missing something?


Not about Cherub, though that might depend on the exact nature of its Bahamian approvals. But were you originally talking about Cherub? You seemed to be addressing VIU, suggesting that its ACICS accreditation isn't satisfactory reason for its demanding removal from Oregon's list.

You wrote in an earlier post:

g-gollin wrote:The ODA web site draws a distinction between regional accreditation and other forms of institutional accreditation...

Unless there is information somewhere to the contrary, it appears that ODA is following the state regs (as it is requred to do) by blocking the use of degrees in Oregon from NA and UA schools that have not been reviewed. So the protests about Cherub and VIU are better aimed at the legislative end of things, rather than the executive branch.


But it appears to me that you were failing to distinguish between the program-approval rules and the degree-use rules.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:24 pm

g-gollin wrote:Oh Steve, you are having an attitude attack!

What a ..um, clusterfest this thread has become! I'm not quite sure who has the "attitude" problem here. As I see it, Steve Foerster and Dr. Rolle-King are the two that definitely don't!

Could the "attitude" problem rest with:

(a) The person who insinuated that Cherub was a mill, for no other reason than it:
(i) offered payment alternatives (as most schools do) and
(ii) had a difference of opinion with the ODA (not the first such school)?

(b) The person who took the above insinuation at face value and made the completely gratuitous cracks about "bumper stickers," etc.?
(c) The person who let the RA/NA monster out of its cage - and proceeded to show he knew nothing of century-old ACICS?
(d) Me, Johann, for egging the monkeys on to fling more poo?
(e) All the above?

This has become a sad thread. We've certainly been no help whatsoever to Dr. Rolle-King. To her, I apologize.

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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Oregon » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:46 am

Why would a school located in another country ever have USDOE approved accreditation? Those damn degree mills in Oxford and Cambridge somehow manage.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:03 am

Oregon wrote:Why would a school located in another country ever have USDOE approved accreditation? Those damn degree mills in Oxford and Cambridge somehow manage.


Read up on the American University of Hawaii, transformed into the American University for Humanities, and its credentialing by the (no longer) USDE-approved AALE accreditor. Two articles in Inside Higher Ed and one from the Chronicle a few years ago. That'll tell you something.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Oregon » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:57 am

g-gollin wrote:Read up on the American University of Hawaii, transformed into the American University for Humanities, and its credentialing by the (no longer) USDE-approved AALE accreditor. Two articles in Inside Higher Ed and one from the Chronicle a few years ago. That'll tell you something.



I note the color of your herring.

Would a brick and mortar Bahamas school not be expected to meet .. say .. Bahamas standards. This may be hard to believe but the vast majority of educational institutions in this world do not have American accreditation and most of them would have their national psyches bruised were it suggested that American accreditation was in any way superior.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:46 pm

Oregon wrote:This may be hard to believe but the vast majority of educational institutions in this world do not have American accreditation...


Oh gosh, and next you'll ask us to believe that Santa Claus really does use an F-15 to deliver presents!
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby SteveFoerster » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:17 pm

g-gollin wrote:
Oregon wrote:Why would a school located in another country ever have USDOE approved accreditation? Those damn degree mills in Oxford and Cambridge somehow manage.

Read up on the American University of Hawaii, transformed into the American University for Humanities, and its credentialing by the (no longer) USDE-approved AALE accreditor. Two articles in Inside Higher Ed and one from the Chronicle a few years ago. That'll tell you something.

Those running ODA don't expect foreign institutions to have American accreditation; they expect institutions to be in countries that have comparable systems to that in the U.S. The problem is (1) that they simply don't have the expertise necessary to make the determination which foreign systems are comparable, and (2) they refuse to publish the criteria by which they make this determination. The first part of that is understandable since they're just a minor agency in a low population state, and have limited resources. The second, however, is "well, we know it when we see it", which is arbitrary application of state power, and that's not at all understandable or excusable.
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