Cherub College complains about ODA

Discussions on the value or merit of unaccredited programs and institutions.

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby nosborne48 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:17 pm

ODA's "vetting" process was pretty selective, IIRC. For instance, they approved Master's degrees in taxation from Utah-based Washington Institute but refused approval to the same institution's doctorates. Contrawise, ODA approved the PhD in Psychology from then-SCUPS but refused approval to that school's Psy.D. degrees. Very case-by-case with particular attention paid to doctorates, both dissertation and first professional.

I never saw this case happen but I wondered what ODA would do with a lawyer who qualified to take the Oregon Bar based on, say, a correspondence J.D. from the absolutely unapproved British-American University, a California law license, and five years of practice experience. He could be a lawyer but not claim to have a law degree? :?
Una cosa mala nunca muere.
nosborne48
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:42 am

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:24 pm

As Nosborne indicates the approval by ODA is extremely selective. However, if the goal is simply to be taken off of the unaccredited list then that is probably the simpliest way.
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby SteveFoerster » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:00 pm

Bill Huffman wrote:Regarding VIU, if VIU isn't accredited by a regional accreditor nor DETC then my understanding is that VIU would be considered unaccredited by the ODA. If someone wants to use a VIU degree in Oregon then they either declare it as unaccredited or they pay the investigation fee. Seems simple to me?

Sorry, no. VIU is ACICS, which has the same recognition as DETC. Such a student would be lying to say the school is unaccredited and they surely shouldn't have a pay several hundred dollars just to tell the truth!

For goodness sake, why is there so much resistance around here to the idea that ODA should cheerfully and speedily fix their mistakes? :x
BS, Information Systems concentration, Charter Oak State College
MA in Educational Technology Leadership, George Washington University
PhD in Leadership, U. of the Cumberlands (in progress)
More about me at my site
SteveFoerster
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2352
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:41 pm
Location: Northern Virginia & Dominica, West Indies

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:39 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Bill Huffman wrote:Regarding VIU, if VIU isn't accredited by a regional accreditor nor DETC then my understanding is that VIU would be considered unaccredited by the ODA. If someone wants to use a VIU degree in Oregon then they either declare it as unaccredited or they pay the investigation fee. Seems simple to me?

Sorry, no. VIU is ACICS, which has the same recognition as DETC. Such a student would be lying to say the school is unaccredited and they surely shouldn't have a pay several hundred dollars just to tell the truth!

For goodness sake, why is there so much resistance around here to the idea that ODA should cheerfully and speedily fix their mistakes? :x


Perhaps I'm mistaken about what the Oregon law says? If that is the law though then I find difficulty faulting ODA for following Oregon law? Then again, perhaps it is similar to the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board and them only recognizing RA. People with DETC degrees were contacted and told they were breaking the law. Eventually THECB fixed that problem.

I understand what you say about ACICS being recognized by CHEA but don't really agree that ACICS has the same general recognition as DETC. I would guess that ACICS is less well recognized compared to DETC (which is way less recognized compared to RA). How long has ACICS been recognized by CHEA? I didn't know that until I read your email and then looked it up on Wikipedia.
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Tark » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:08 am

According to Oregon law:
"Accredited" means approved to offer degrees at a specified level by an agency or association recognized as an accreditor in the U.S. by the U.S. Secretary of Education or having candidacy status with an agency or association whose pre-accreditation category is recognized specifically by the U. S. Secretary of Education as an assurance of future accreditation.

ACICS is recognized by the US Dept. of Education as a national accreditation agency (just like DETC). ACICS schools tend to be "brick and mortar" institutions, rather than distance learning schools, so ACICS is not as well known in the DL community as DETC. But both are recognized national accreditation agencies.

I don't know when ACICS gained USDoE recognition, but their accreditation is clearly acceptable in Oregon, because ACICS-accredited B&M schools operate freely there. The ACICS directory currently lists ten ACICS-accredited B&M schools in Oregon, such as Carrington College, Pioneer Pacific College, Everest College, ITT Technical Institute, and Sumner College.

If VIU has valid accreditation, then why are they on the ODA list of "Schools that are not Authorized to Offer Degrees in the State of Oregon" ? Probably because the list was initially compiled at a time when VIU was, in fact, unaccredited. According to Wikipedia, VIU was established in 1998; according to the USDoE database, VIU did not receive ACICS accreditation until April 2008. VIU was apparently added to the ODA list before that date; archive.org has records of the list dating back to March 2007, and they include VIU. At that time, VIU probably did belong on the list.

But ODA apparently has never updated its list. So even though VIU gained recognized accreditation more than three years ago, ODA has not acknowledged the change.This does seem unreasonable on ODA's part, as VIU's current accreditation status is very easy to verify. I can see where it might take some research for ODA to address the status of foreign schools, but VIU shows up immediately as accredited in the USDoE database, the CHEA database, and the ACICS database. It just takes a few clicks.

It might be reasonable for ODA to leave VIU on the list, if they indicated that pre-2008 VIU degrees were unaccredited. However, VIU degrees issued since 2008 clearly meet the letter and spirit of Oregon state law. They have recognized US accreditation, and it's that simple.
Tark
Senior Member
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:42 pm

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:22 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:For goodness sake, why is there so much resistance around here to the idea that ODA should cheerfully and speedily fix their mistakes?


I don't think that there has been very much resistance to the idea, apart from Bill Huffman. George Gollin might be resistant too, but it's hard to be sure since he doesn't seem to want to reveal very much to the rest of us.

As for me, I can appreciate that Oregon is trying to do something about the mill problem. But the way that they are going about it seems unnecessarily clumsy and ham-handed.

And just philosophically, it's difficult for me to be comfortable with the fact that the solution amounts to just more erosion of Oregonians' civil liberties. It bothers me that they've created a situation where it's entirely legal to be an alcoholic in the state of Oregon, but you can become a criminal if you seek additional education and then dare to tell somebody else about having done it.

I'm very happy to be living down here south of the Oregon border in the comparative banana-republic of California, where ad-hoc grass-roots educational experiments are not only legal, they are welcomed.
Hungry Ghost
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2598
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:46 am

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Tark » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:18 pm

Oregon's philosophy is basically that "accredited degrees are legal, unaccredited degrees are legal if accompanied by a disclaimer". The disclaimer requirement doesn't strike me as an undue restriction on civil liberties; for example, the same requirement is commonly enforced for other types of credentials, like professional licenses.

If you have an out-of-state CPA license but are not licensed in Oregon, then you don't call yourself a CPA in Oregon, unless you add a disclaimer.
If you have an out-of-state accounting degree that does not meet Oregon standards, then you don't advertise that degree in Oregon, unless you add a disclaimer.
If you accept the first point as reasonable, then the second point seems reasonable as well.

The problem, in the VIU case, is that the Oregon philosophy breaks down if the state can't distinguish accredited from unaccredited degrees. I think this situation would warrant the attention of ACICS (where VIU is an accredited member) and CHEA (where ACICS is a member organization). The whole point of regional/national accreditation is to provide a common standard for degrees so that they can easily "travel" across state lines. If a particular state refuses to acknowledge a properly accredited out-of-state degree, then it undermines the whole purpose of accreditation.
Tark
Senior Member
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:42 pm

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:31 pm

Tark wrote:...the Oregon philosophy breaks down if the state can't distinguish accredited from unaccredited degrees.

Darn right it does!

(1) VIU - NA school (ACICS) - apparently not good enough for ODA
(2) Cherub College - degrees proven good enough for entry to London School of Economics grad programs - still not good enough for ODA

If that isn't ridiculous - what is? :(
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby SteveFoerster » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:18 pm

For one thing, a forced disclaimer is a requirement of which a reasonable person would likely be completely unaware. There are already too many regulations out there that make unintended criminals out of people who don't realize they're out of compliance with some arcane requirement.

For another thing, forcing graduates to add such a disclaimer makes it look like there's something wrong with the school when that might not be the case at all. Accreditation doesn't confer academic legitimacy, it's simply third party validation of that legitimacy, the difference there is important.

Moreover, schools are just as often ineligible for accreditation for financial reasons as academic ones. Sure, that may be important to a prospective student who wants assurance that the school will be there long enough for him to graduate, but after that when the school is on his resume, it's irrelevant.

Besides, if those who've graduated from a school that's unaccredited should be forced to note it, isn't it just as reasonable to force those who've graduated from accredited schools to note which accreditation organization covered their school at the time of graduation? If not, why not?

But that's just the disclaimer -- then there's the international problem. The situations with St. George's University and Cherub College show that ODA simply doesn't have the expertise to do this fairly. International higher education is really complex, and doesn't always categorize neatly into "red light" and "green light". Since they don't understand that, it would be much better for them simply to do nothing, or provide links to NACES or AACRAO if they want to do something that's actually potentially useful.

So what would be better? Delete the lists for sure, and I would argue end the disclaimer requirement also. Students, employers, and other interested parties can quickly check CHEA for free if they're concerned about a school's accreditation status. As it is, ODA is a big clumsy solution for a very small problem.
BS, Information Systems concentration, Charter Oak State College
MA in Educational Technology Leadership, George Washington University
PhD in Leadership, U. of the Cumberlands (in progress)
More about me at my site
SteveFoerster
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2352
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:41 pm
Location: Northern Virginia & Dominica, West Indies

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:37 pm

johann wrote:
Tark wrote:...the Oregon philosophy breaks down if the state can't distinguish accredited from unaccredited degrees.

Darn right it does!

(1) VIU - NA school (ACICS) - apparently not good enough for ODA
(2) Cherub College - degrees proven good enough for entry to London School of Economics grad programs - still not good enough for ODA

If that isn't ridiculous - what is? :(


I agree that if VIU is accredited by ACICS, then it needs to removed from the Oregon list immediately.

But I'm not really sure if anything's been "proven" about Cherub college. My doubts haven't all been dispelled. I'm still not really sure how credible this school is.

But that doesn't mean that I'm entirely comfortable with Oregon including them on an evident shit-list that's overwhelmingly populated with degree-mills either. I don't like the idea that somebody in Oregon has set about to effectively trash and defame selected unaccredited schools, perhaps based on nothing more than the fact that they are unaccredited.

If Oregon is going to publish a list of mills, then they need to be very certain that they only list mills and they will need to be prepared to defend their decisions. If on the other hand they are listing non-accredited schools that happened to come to their attention and require Oregonians to use a disclaimer, and if Oregon isn't making any additional judgements about the quality of education that these schools offer, then Oregon needs to clearly explain all that and include some disclaimers of their own. They have to be aware that their list is currently being reproduced all over the internet as if it was an official government listing of diploma mills. (And most of the 'schools' on the list probably are mills, with a handful of exceptions.) Right now, Oregon seems to want to have things both ways.
Hungry Ghost
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2598
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:46 am

Re: ACICS - 100 years in 2012

Postby johann » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:00 pm

Bill Huffman wrote:I would guess that ACICS is less well recognized compared to DETC (which is way less recognized compared to RA). How long has ACICS been recognized by CHEA? I didn't know that until I read your email and then looked it up on Wikipedia.

ACICS has been recognized by CHEA for over ten years - since May 2001. ACICS is celebrating its centenary in 2012. A book on its 100-year history is forthcoming. ACICS and DETC are both National Accreditors- different scope, maybe, but equally recognized by CHEA, on the same page.

The ODA should know this.

See here: http://www.chea.org/Directories/private.asp

Johann
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: DETC and ACICS

Postby johann » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:56 pm

Only differences (per CHEA page): DETC accredits schools that are primarily distance-ed oriented. ACICS accredits schools that are primarily not distance-ed. DETC accreditation allows certain doctoral programs. Although the CHEA page says ACICS accreditation stops at the Master's level, I know that from 2005 onwards, ACICS has approved certain Doctoral programs. Two examples of ACICS-accredited schools with Doctoral Programs are the DBA at California International Business University http://cibu.edu and the DBA and Doctor of Computer Engineering programs at Northwestern Polytechnic U - http://www.npu.edu . All doctoral programs mentioned were specifically authorized by ACICS, per the schools' websites.

There -- that should be enough about ACICS - for anyone except the ODA, that is! :(

Johann
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:45 pm

In my opinion, the best way to try to "put a lid" on the diploma mill problem is passing laws against use of the diploma mill degrees. The simpliest handle available that can be put into a law is accreditation. Therefore, like the laws in Oregon and Washington State they have laws restricting the use of unaccredited degrees. Good for them. I hope similar laws are passed in more states.

Cherub College is unfortunately in a jurisdiction that in the past has given licenses to operate to diploma mills. Therefore, the ODA by default assumes that these degrees are not up to standard. The VIU situation is rather amusing to me. It appears that the ODA should take VIU off their list of unaccredited schools. On the other hand I really don't have a lot of sympathy for their situation. (Wasn't a certain Ph.D. that used to frequent this forum thinking of taking a job there and he bowed out because of their perpetual unaccredited status?) Operating for years without any accreditation is irresponsible in my opinion, especially in this environment of massive accademic fraud gettng out of control. It primarily hurts the graduates. I have zero sympathy for VIU being on the ODA unaccredited institution list but do have some sympathy for the VIU graduates. I have a bit more sympathy for Cherub's situation but I'll guess that Cherub graduates are probably less likely to be impacted by Cherub being on the ODA unaccredited list than VIU graduates.
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:38 pm

(1) Many US and foreign jurisdictions have licensed mills. Does this make all their schools bad? I guess the ODA thinks so.
(2) You find the VIU situation amusing. I'll bet VIU doesn't. :(
(3) That certain Ph.D. seems to be doing fine. VIU is now accredited, but not RA, so it probably wouldn't suit him anyway. He's highly-placed in a government job, IIRC, and was mentioning his pretty fancy pay-grade in foro - around $145K as I recall. Way more than VIU could pay him, I'm sure.
(4) Yes - I agree. Cherub grads are likely less affected by ODA than VIU grads. And that makes everything OK how? :(

It's OK Bill. No answers required. You win. Thanks guys.

Johann

PS. The Ph.D. did actually work at VIU - but said (2006) he left as he didn't feel they would achieve accreditation. Here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1172 See around post no. 15
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:09 am

johann wrote:(1) Many US and foreign jurisdictions have licensed mills. Does this make all their schools bad? I guess the ODA thinks so.
(2) You find the VIU situation amusing. I'll bet VIU doesn't. :(
(3) That certain Ph.D. seems to be doing fine. VIU is now accredited, but not RA, so it probably wouldn't suit him anyway. He's highly-placed in a government job, IIRC, and was mentioning his pretty fancy pay-grade in foro - around $145K as I recall. Way more than VIU could pay him, I'm sure.
(4) Yes - I agree. Cherub grads are likely less affected by ODA than VIU grads. And that makes everything OK how? :(

It's OK Bill. No answers required. You win. Thanks guys.

Johann

PS. The Ph.D. did actually work at VIU - but said (2006) he left as he didn't feel they would achieve accreditation. Here: http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/ ... f=2&t=1172 See around post no. 15


(1) It is really a list of schools that degrees can't be used in Oregon. If a school is unaccredited and is brought to the attention of ODA then they go on the list. If the school is from a jurisdiction that has a history of poor academic oversight and is brought to the attention of the ODA then it goes on the list. That is really all that list means. If a graduate of a school on the list or an unaccredited school doesn't want to declare their school as unaccredited then they can have the ODA evaluate their degree for a nominal fee.
(2) I'm sure you're correct. Perhaps they should ask a VIU graduate to apply to the ODA? Perhaps you might even volunteer and ask VIU if they are willing to pay the nominal fee for you (of course you would tell the ODA that VIU is actually accredited now).
(3) Good for him!
(4) It just means that I really do have more sympathy for VIU grads.

Thanks but I consider winning impossible in a discussion on the Internet. The most that can be hoped for is a chuckle or some knowledge exchanged.

P.S. Thank you for a link to the 2006 post. It really was a brilliantly right-on post IMHO. :-)
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

PreviousNext

Return to Unaccredited Programs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron