Cherub College complains about ODA

Discussions on the value or merit of unaccredited programs and institutions.

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:08 am

There appear to be some misrepresentations in this thread.

First, no where on the ODA website that I can find does it say that Cherub College is a diploma mill. All it says is that they are located in the Bahamas and that degrees from there cannot be used in Oregon.

Second, there is no shakedown money. Sorry, but that is just plain ridiculous. If you read the ODA website you will see that if you want an unaccredited degree to be accepted in Oregon then you simply pay a reasonable investigation fee and they will do the analysis. There are many such exceptions listed on the ODA website where they did the investigation and the unaccredited degrees are accepted.

:wink:
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:25 am

johann wrote:
johann wrote:finger-pointing is not research.

I'd be willing to bet that between HG and myself, more research was done on Cherub in, oh-- probably less than an hour all told -- than the ODA has done on Cherub since day one! If a shakedown, as per Steve's account, is the best they can do, maybe I should change my tune and actually want them (but not higher ed. oversight in general) eliminated!

Johann


You seem to be making a false assumption. Whether or not the ODA investigated Cherub is irrelevant. The ODA is not supposed to investigate Cherub except to find that they are unaccredited. Why do you think that they should have to investigate Cherub? The ODA simply states that Cherub degrees are illegal for use Oregon. If that is unacceptable to someone then that someone can simply pay the reasonable investigation fee and then they can use their degree in Oregon assuming that the degree is up to a reasonable standard.
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:28 am

Bill Huffman wrote:There appear to be some misrepresentations in this thread.

First, no where on the ODA website that I can find does it say that Cherub College is a diploma mill.

Oh, dear! You saying the OP, Dr. Gollin is wrong, Bill? See the first post - he says the ODA "has listed Cherub College as a diploma mill." :shock:

Bill Huffman wrote:Second, there is no shakedown money. Sorry, but that is just plain ridiculous.

Steve Foerster says the ODA were demanding an investigation fee in the case of VIU, among others. VIU is accredited by ACICS - we all know that so what is the fee for? Sounds like a shakedown to me. I'm with Steve!

Johann
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:40 am

Bill Huffman wrote:You seem to be making a false assumption. Whether or not the ODA investigated Cherub is irrelevant.

No, it isn't irrelevant - at least, not by my standards. Until proven otherwise, it looks to me like they pointed the finger without sufficient (or likely any) prior research. According to what I read, Cherub's undergrad courses (and degrees) are valid in at least one American RA School (Berkeley College - NY and NJ). Bet the ODA hasn't woken up to that yet!

Let's see how satisfied Cherub College is with the "pay an investigation fee" approach. I doubt VIU is happy with it, either!

Johann
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: My apology - misquoting Dr. Gollin

Postby johann » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:49 am

Bill Huffman wrote:There appear to be some misrepresentations in this thread.
First, no where on the ODA website that I can find does it say that Cherub College is a diploma mill.

Johann wrote:Oh, dear! You saying the OP, Dr. Gollin is wrong, Bill? See the first post - he says the ODA "has listed Cherub College as a diploma mill." :shock:

Whoops - sorry! Dr. Gollin was quoting from the Cherub College site. They said it - he didn't. My apologies, Dr. G.

Johann
Last edited by johann on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:50 am

johann wrote:Indeed it is a non-sequitur - but the ODA has uh ...leapt again.


Have they? Here's the ODA's current listing for Cherub:

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx

Foreign Degree Suppliers

The use of degrees issued outside the United States is governed by ORS 348.609(1)(a), which requires that such degrees come from schools with the foreign equivalent of U.S. accreditation.


So basically all that the ODA is officially saying about Cherub is that it lacks the equivalent of American accreditation, which is very likely true.

I can understand why Cherub isn't happy, since many people reprint the Oregon list and treat it as if it is an official listing of diploma mills. (And most of the schools listed, with a couple of exceptions, almost certainly are mills.)
Hungry Ghost
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2598
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:46 am

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:13 am

johann wrote:I'd be willing to bet that between HG and myself, more research was done on Cherub in, oh-- probably less than an hour all told -- than the ODA has done on Cherub since day one!


I haven't done any research. I just stated what my initial reaction was to looking at Cherub's website.

Bill Huffman wrote:You seem to be making a false assumption. Whether or not the ODA investigated Cherub is irrelevant.


It wouldn't be irrelevant at all if the ODA was actually calling Cherub a "diploma mill", as Cherub alleges.

I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that several years ago the ODA list did label some schools 'diploma mills', based on their own peculiar definition. So it's possible that the ODA did call Cherub a mill in the past, but is no longer doing so. The ODA seems to have deleted many of those unnecessary comments.
Hungry Ghost
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2598
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:46 am

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby nosborne48 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:11 pm

Was that the Kennedy-Western suit?

You know, I STILL have mixed feelings about K-W. Oh, I'm satisfied that the place was substandard and that USCG LCDR's testimony made my hair stand on end but it just didn't look to me like the usual diploma for cash printing operation. Sigh.

I am still very grateful for this site and its predecessors guiding me away from K-W before any harm was done.
Una cosa mala nunca muere.
nosborne48
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:42 am

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:32 pm

nosborne48 wrote:Was that the Kennedy-Western suit?


Yeah, might have been.

You know, I STILL have mixed feelings about K-W. Oh, I'm satisfied that the place was substandard and that USCG LCDR's testimony made my hair stand on end but it just didn't look to me like the usual diploma for cash printing operation. Sigh.


I'm not sure if it was. My impression is that its practices changed over time. I seem to recall people talking about classes that they took from K-W, and those people saying that the K-W classes were as good as DL classes taken elsewhere. So K-W apparently did offer real classes at one point. The problem at that time seems to have been that the K-W sales people would typically waive about 3/4 of everyone's program, giving applicants spurious life-experience credit for material that was never really covered. And reportedly, as time went on, the classes that K-W delivered became more and more perfunctory, turning into some kind of automated system towards the end. (Presumably so as to save on faculty expenses.)

So, if I encounteed somebody who told me that they took a university class from K-W, I'd be skeptical, but I wouldn't automatically dismiss it. But I wouldn't give much credence to a K-W degree.
Hungry Ghost
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2598
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:46 am

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:11 pm

My last tilt at this windmill, I promise - though I've been known to lie. :oops:

I still feel there might (and maybe should) be some Heißwasser (thankyou, Dr. Bear) ahead for the ODA on this one. After I logged off last night and went home, I remembered the past lawsuit (Kennedy Western). As I see it, KW-WN may have been a far worse school than Cherub likely is - yet they prevailed, at least to an out-of court settlement. And yes - the ODA list did have a section called "diploma mills" before that lawsuit, IIRC. And list-users have long memories.

Here's an article (not by Yoodles) re the KW settlement: http://www.allbusiness.com/government/g ... 858-1.html

The ODA "list" may be just a list of schools, the degrees of which are not valid in Oregon. Despite this ostensibly good purpose, it is constructively a sh*! list, and used exactly that way by many people. Nobody wants their school on the same list as Almeda and Belford! No legit school, as VIU undoubtedly is and I think Cherub may very well be, wants their name on any kind of sh*! list - and if they have to litigate their way off - they should.

Johann: Hold on to your briefs, ODA lawyers...
Dr. Gollin: That's ridiculous.
Johann: Depends!


Johann :D
johann
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:56 pm

Hungry Ghost wrote:
johann wrote:I'd be willing to bet that between HG and myself, more research was done on Cherub in, oh-- probably less than an hour all told -- than the ODA has done on Cherub since day one!


I haven't done any research. I just stated what my initial reaction was to looking at Cherub's website.

Bill Huffman wrote:You seem to be making a false assumption. Whether or not the ODA investigated Cherub is irrelevant.


It wouldn't be irrelevant at all if the ODA was actually calling Cherub a "diploma mill", as Cherub alleges.

I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that several years ago the ODA list did label some schools 'diploma mills', based on their own peculiar definition. So it's possible that the ODA did call Cherub a mill in the past, but is no longer doing so. The ODA seems to have deleted many of those unnecessary comments.


I agree that if the ODA called Cherub a diploma mill then they probably should have investigated further than just being unaccredited. I doubt if they actually did call Cherub a diploma mill though. ODA labeled very few schools as a diploma mill. This was in the distant past. I assume they applied such a label only after more investigation than just assuring that the school was unaccredited. All the diploma mill labels were removed as part of the settlement agreement in the KWU versus ODA lawsuit.

My understanding of the current Oregon law is that degrees from all unaccredited schools by default cannot be used within Oregon unless mention of the unaccredited status is also mentioned at the same time. If a person has an unaccredited degree that they feel is close to standard then they can pay a small fee (about $350 IIRC) and the ODA will evaluate the degree and post the findings on their website. If your degree is found acceptable then you can use it without mentioning its unaccredited status. Also since it will be listed as acceptable on the ODA website, others who have earned the exact same degree can also use their degree without going through the ODA investigation. I consider it ridiculous to call such a small amount a "shakedown" fee. It is also unreasonable, IMHO, to expect the ODA to go further than seeing if the school is unaccredited without a fee to cover their costs. There must be some way to discourage some diploma mill owner from repeatedly requesting a reevaluation of their diploma mill or one of their newly created diploma mills.

Regarding VIU, if VIU isn't accredited by a regional accreditor nor DETC then my understanding is that VIU would be considered unaccredited by the ODA. If someone wants to use a VIU degree in Oregon then they either declare it as unaccredited or they pay the investigation fee. Seems simple to me?
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Dr Joan Rolle-King » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:12 pm

I came across this forum while "googling" the whole issue.

The issue concerns me primarily that I am the President of the college in question, and any college president in my shoe would be concerned.

I have been working in academia for some 30 years and I have never ran into a situation like this one that we are currently experiencing with ODA. Since the members on this forum seem so interested I will take the time to explain to you what the whole notice on our website is about. When we first contacted ODA, it took them some months before they responded. We have provided them with copies of the relevant approval documentation from the Bahamas Government and they still seem to not want to recognize it. There are a number of other tertiary institutions spread across the islands. Having worked in some of the most elite universities in the United States, it has always been a Generally Accepted Academic Principle that a foreign university/college/technical school etc... met at the very least the equivalent of national accreditation. There are other colleges in the Bahamas that actually when it comes to academic rigor, don't even compare with our college. Considering that we are more international per say, we do attract a better faculty, we do have better resources, and generally speaking it is safe to say that are in the top percentile in the Bahamas as an institution of choice. There is one very large institution in the Bahamas, the College of the Bahamas. I honestly see it as very well possible in another 6-8 years we will have surpassed the College of the Bahamas and become the premier higher education facility within the country. But back on track with the issue at hand, there has never been a university/college that did not accept a student because they did not recognize our college. Even now, we have some students studying at London School of Economics and Political Science for an MSc in Finance and Economics. If I am correct, I believe the number is 2. I can provide proof of this; and if you look at the statistics of students accepted into this program in 2010, there were 1,422 applicants and 78 were accepted. This is verifiable, look at LSE's Graduate Prospectus. If a credible program like this one finds our graduates up to par for entry, then this just goes to show how credible the ODA really is.

What I somehow cannot understand is why is it that they are so stubborn to remove our name from the list. This is a partial copy of the email the Interim ODA Administrator sent to our Provost earlier this year:

If you have more substantial evidence of your schools equivalence to Oregon standards, you are welcome to send it. I would also remind you that once a school comes to our attention and is listed as issuing degrees unacceptable for use in Oregon, the burden of proof falls to the school to provide credible evidence of appropriate accreditation or equivalence. For foreign institutions, there are world higher education evaluation resources that we use to verify this status. At this time, your school appears unqualified for this status under every indicator available for verification. Until you submit credible evidence that your school is, in fact, equivalent to a regionally-accredited institution of higher education in the U.S., it will remain on the list of schools whose degrees are not acceptable for use in Oregon. You may contact us again if the school becomes accredited with a recognized accrediting association or has additional credible evaluation materials to submit for further consideration.
As I stated previously, in our phone conversation, this list is published as a public service for students and employers in our state to provide information as to the validity of an earned degree in Oregon. Please accept this decision as final, based on current information. We will not respond to future emails unless these include new or more substantial evidence for our consideration.
Thank you,
Jennifer Diallo, M.Ed.
Interim ODA Administrator | Oregon Student Assistance Commission | 1500 Valley River Dr., Suite 100 | Eugene, OR 97401
(541) 687-7478 | FAX (541) 687-7414 | jennifer.l.diallo@state.or.us | http://www.osac.state.or.us


How I see it, it is not our duty to do any research for the ODA. If the ODA prepares a list, it is only expected that they verify it. Using an example, every other college in the Bahamas has the exact same government approval as we do. We additionally are a member of ACTI which is a de-facto accrediting body. But lets even disregard ACTI for now, if they do not recognize the approval of the Bahamas Government, then I would expect then to see every single college in the Bahamas that is not a US branch, placed on the list. Because the ODA has refused to remove our name from the list, we therefore will have to seek legal measures to have it done. It is actually libelous to have our name on the list when in accordance with the policy practiced by ODA, they obviously recognize the Bahamas Government approval as acceptable in Oregon, otherwise they would have placed all of the other institutions in the Bahamas on the list. But by refusing to move our name unless we pay an outside agency an investigation fee to correct the issue is ridiculous. If you want to reach out to me to find out more, email is joan.rolle@cherubcollege.edu.bs.

One last thing, to clear up the air on a few questions I saw:

1.) The college is brick and mortar. We are not an online school. We do have a DL program for our students who would like to take some classes online. It is not yet possible to do an entire degree program with us through full DL.

2.) We are NOT a degree mill. The students work very hard for their qualifications. I can put you in touch with some of them for verification.

3.) Although I do not work in the Bursar's office, I would believe every college would allow someone to pay in full should they choose. Secondly, who does not accept credit cards nowadays? Even churches now have them at the back of pews to swipe for tithes and offerings lol. Its 2011, some people, including myself, live with only credit cards. And yes the miles do add up. Every year I go on vacation with my miles. This year I went to Milan in October, flew First Class on British Airways, rented a car, and stayed 6 nights in the Westin Hotel in Milan. I paid less than 500 bucks in total for taxes and service charges. Otherwise, if it weren't for the miles, that would have turned out to be a very expensive trip.

4.) To Johann, yes our web presence is a in my humble opinion very behind for 2011. When I became President, I made it a priority. If you check back in another week or so, I can assure you a very big surprise. We have hired a company for design and implementation. From what I have seen, its gonna be very nice. You are also correct, we are not eager to collect money from people overseas. It is not our practice to be a moneyhog. We are a non-profit institution and our endowment and donations along with the fees, which are very small compared to similar institutions keep us going.

5.) We do have an Articulation Agreement and Advanced Standing agreement with Berkeley College. Also, we have an MOU with the University of Latvia at all levels: Associate, Baccalaureate, Masters and Doctoral. Although we do not offer graduate degrees, when we do so, it will be a venture where the University of Latvia will assist us in developing those programs.

Do forgive me for all the writing, after all I am an academic, its my nature :wink:
Dr Joan Marie Rolle-King, PhD
President
Cherub College
Nebruck House, Sandyport Drive
PO Box SP-64063
Nassau, N.P.; the Bahamas
Tel: +(1)-(242)- 225-0312
Fax: +(1)-(242)-361-0874
Email: joan.rolle@cherubcollege.edu.bs
Dr Joan Rolle-King
New Member
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:16 pm
Location: Nassau, Bahamas

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:15 pm

johann wrote: And yes - the ODA list did have a section called "diploma mills" before that lawsuit, IIRC. And list-users have long memories.


Actually, there was not a section for diploma mills. In the comment column of the list, a few of the institutions had a comment that said "diploma mill", IIRC.

johann wrote:
The ODA "list" may be just a list of schools, the degrees of which are not valid in Oregon. Despite this ostensibly good purpose, it is constructively a sh*! list, and used exactly that way by many people. Nobody wants their school on the same list as Almeda and Belford! No legit school, as VIU undoubtedly is and I think Cherub may very well be, wants their name on any kind of sh*! list - and if they have to litigate their way off - they should.


I agree that many would consider the ODA list of unaccredited schools, some kind of a sh*! list. I'll guess that Cherub has close to a zero chance in any lawsuit though. The fact is that the ODA does not label the list a sh*! list. If any school is accredited and is on the list then I suspect that the ODA would promptly remove the school after finding out it was accredited. That school could claim damages in their lawsuit but if the school is unaccredited and on the list then too bad for that school. Being on the list really only means being unaccredited. If one doesn't like their school being on an unaccredited school list with diploma mills then one shouldn't become associated with an unaccredited school.
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Bill Huffman » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:27 pm

Dr Joan Rolle-King wrote:I came across this forum while "googling" the whole issue.

:wink:


Thank you for the nice post.

The ODA website says, "Does the host country have adequate academic oversight practices? Under Oregon law, ODA determines this on a case-by-case basis. Our list of unaccredited schools provides an idea of which countries have doubtful oversight."
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/accreditation.html

The ODA does not troll the world for schools to add to their list. They will add a school to thier list when the school is brought to their attention. If other schools in the BAhamas are not on the list then chances are they have just not been brought to the attention of the ODA.

My thoughts are: You could perhaps ask a graduate of Cherub to request the ODA to investigate his/her degree for use in Oregon. You could consider getting DETC accreditation.
Bill Huffman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:56 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Dr Joan Rolle-King » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:48 pm

We have discussed the possibility of applying for DETC accreditation, however considering we are not primarily a DL institution, it would not make us eligible. Our DL programs are still under development and implementation. We do intend on eventually applying RA, however it is some years from now. Immediate goals are to do with building more infrastructure, technology advances, curriculum development etc.... So that when the time does come to apply for RA, we would be ready fully to avoid the whole back-and-forth to do with changing certain things about the college.
Dr Joan Marie Rolle-King, PhD
President
Cherub College
Nebruck House, Sandyport Drive
PO Box SP-64063
Nassau, N.P.; the Bahamas
Tel: +(1)-(242)- 225-0312
Fax: +(1)-(242)-361-0874
Email: joan.rolle@cherubcollege.edu.bs
Dr Joan Rolle-King
New Member
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:16 pm
Location: Nassau, Bahamas

PreviousNext

Return to Unaccredited Programs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron