Cherub College complains about ODA

Discussions on the value or merit of unaccredited programs and institutions.

Postby Hungry Ghost » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:27 pm

g-gollin wrote:
Hungry Ghost wrote:They may not have ever formally called it a list of mills, probably because doing so would have made their office more vulnerable to lawsuits. But if the great majority of what they choose to list appear in fact to be mills, then essentially it's a list of mills, whatever label is put atop it.


Some years ago (2003 or 2004, I believe) the list DID explicitly identify some degreee providers as diploma mills. Oregon has a definition of the terms "diploma mill" and "degree mill" in the Oregon Administrative Rules


If Oregon restricted themselves to only listing "entities" that can be shown to satisfy Oregon's own peculiar legal definition of 'mill', then there would be less reason to criticize the list.

Note that there is no measure of academic quality in the definition, only whether the degree provider has been found to have "engaged in dishonest, fraudulent or deceptive practices related to the award of degrees, academic standards or student learning requirements" or that the school issues credentials without the legal authority to do so.


So the whole reason for higher-education's existence in the first place just kind of drops out of consideration entirely.

I prefer to interpret the word 'mill' in the manner that I expect most of the general public already does. A mill is an organization that awards degrees based on substandard education or perhaps based on no education at all.

And my impression is that the great majority of the things included on Oregon's list would easily satisfy that more academic definition of mill.

If ODA doesn't say that some list is a list of mills, then they're not saying it's a list of mills.


It doesn't matter what they call it. 'Res ipsa loquitur'. The thing speaks for itself, it is what it is.

Here's what I'll call

A List of Men

1. Hitler
2. Pol Pot
3. Caligula
4. Barack Obama
5. Stalin
6. Kim Jung Il
7. Mussolini
8. Mao
9. Attila
10. Commodus

The President of the United States has no grounds at all for objecting about being included on that list, because I've said that it's just a list of men. If others interpret it as a list of tyrants, then that's their decision and not my resposibility. Right?

That's what I'm arguing against. I think that Mr. Obama would have excellent grounds for complaint.

Just because someone else says it is doesn't make it so. People used to say the world is flat.


If Oregon wants to publish a list of tyrants/mills, then it needs to be upfront, call it what it is, and then be prepared to defend its decisions in particular cases.

If Oregon wants to use looser criteria for inclusion, they probably should tell readers of the list what those criteria are. If the list is simply a listing of non-accredited schools whose graduates need to include a disclaimer if they "use" their degrees in Oregon, then that needs to be clearly stated.

What's more, Oregon probably needs to include a disclaimer of their own, right there atop their own list, that clearly states that the list is simply a listing of schools that lack what Oregon deems to be credible outside academic quality assurance, and that Oregon is making no further judgement one way or another about the quality of the education that the listed schools say they offer. Then Oregon should say something about their optional process of examining and approving out-of-state schools so as to make disclaimers unnecessary.

But even if they did all that, if they continue to mistakenly list a handful of accredited schools and some unknown number of what might be defensible unaccredited schools on a list that's populated largely by degrees-for-dollars scams and frauds, then defensible schools included in that company (by a supposedly authoritative government agency no less) would still have reasonable grounds to complain.
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Re:

Postby Bill Huffman » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:13 pm

Hungry Ghost wrote: If the list is simply a listing of non-accredited schools whose graduates need to include a disclaimer if they "use" their degrees in Oregon, then that needs to be clearly stated.

What's more, Oregon probably needs to include a disclaimer of their own, right there atop their own list, that clearly states that the list is simply a listing of schools that lack what Oregon deems to be credible outside academic quality assurance, and that Oregon is making no further judgement one way or another about the quality of the education that the listed schools say they offer. Then Oregon should say something about their optional process of examining and approving out-of-state schools so as to make disclaimers unnecessary.


The ODA plainly states what the purpose is. From the ODA website, it states.

The following list of unaccredited degree suppliers is maintained by ODA for the protection of the citizens of Oregon and their post-secondary schools by identifying those degree suppliers that do not meet the requirements of ORS 348.609(1). This is not a comprehensive list and new suppliers emerge every day, many of which remain unknown to ODA. The list contains degree suppliers that may not now exist, may never have existed, exist only as unregulated businesses, operate under exemptions in state laws or operate with state approval outside Oregon.

Users of degrees from these suppliers may contact ODA with any questions about the legal status of such degrees for use as credentials in Oregon. ODA cannot give legal advice but can provide information about how a degree is treated, why it is treated that way and steps that a user can take to obtain a formal evaluation from ODA or another evaluator.

Employers, potential students, potential clients and others doing business with users of these degrees should take appropriate steps to determine the true nature of the credentials listed here in order to ensure that degrees are genuine and are being used legally.

For general information about the operations of unaccredited schools investigated by the U.S. Senate and other entities, see the following links:


Schools that are not Authorized to Offer Degrees in the State of Oregon


Note that the purpose of the list is clearly stated and obviously is intended to serve the public interest. I also argue that your analogous list as presented would likely not serve any purpose except trying to disparage Obama so is not really applicable in my view.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:11 pm

What's that Internet forum principle involving inclusion of the word "nazis?"
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Oregon » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:59 am

Godwin's Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

There is another principle involved in the Oregon ODA. It's called Horseshit! Contreras had half a clue. The current ODA crop has no clue. Huffman is working his way into negative territory, like sucking farts back in. The Bahamas school is probably just fine. The ODA people are simply too stupid, too lazy, or too vindictive to get it right. End of story. Did I do good, you frigging Nazis?
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:18 pm

g-gollin wrote:What's that Internet forum principle involving inclusion of the word "nazis?"

Well, but HG could have provided a list of non-Nazi historical scoundrels and included Mr. Obama and the point would be just as clear. It still wouldn't be just a "list of men" to any reasonable reader, just as ODA's list is a list of unwonderfuls to any even halfway knowledgeable observer.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:22 pm

And everybody said the world was flat. And a bunch of yahoos said my thesis was written by other people. But neither was true, and that's all there is to it.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:30 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
g-gollin wrote:What's that Internet forum principle involving inclusion of the word "nazis?"

Well, but HG could have provided a list of non-Nazi historical scoundrels and included Mr. Obama and the point would be just as clear.


I thought that my list was very ecumenical. One nazi, four communists, one Italian fascist, one ancient barbarian, one American Democrat, and a couple of the more over-the-top Roman emperors. Just a list of men, nothing more. Any conclusions that people draw beyond that are entirely their own. I smell like a rose.

It still wouldn't be just a "list of men" to any reasonable reader, just as ODA's list is a list of unwonderfuls to any even halfway knowledgeable observer.


And that's precisely my point. If the list is in fact a list of mills, then that's what it is, whatever the label that the ODA chose to put atop it. If an accredited school or a defensible non-accredited school is included on a list that's overwhelmingly comprised of mills, then it's implicitly being identified as a mill as well. That's excellent justification for a school's objecting to being included on the list.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:00 pm

Well, HG, you know how it is. You include nine evil guys on a list of ten men and suddenly all those "pattern recognition" lunatics think it's a list of evil guys. What a bunch of kooks! :twisted:
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:01 pm

ODA doesn't say the schools are evil, only that their degrees can't be used in Oregon. They USED to call some providers mills, but do not do that now.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Dexter Dexter » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:14 am

g-gollin wrote:ODA doesn't say the schools are evil, only that their degrees can't be used in Oregon. They USED to call some providers mills, but do not do that now.


Incorrect, they still call a number of school mills.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx

Almeda College (University) Florida, Idaho Closed by legal action in Florida but may still be operating there. Operating illegally in Idaho. Degree mill. Also uses name Almeda International University.

Canada International Education Centre Alberta Canada Degree mill. Lacks degree-granting authority. Lacks Alberta approval.

Claremont University Seychelles Islands Operated from Illinois by former St. Regis University degree salesperson. Degree mill, no connection to genuine Claremont U in California.

Corllins University California, Michigan Degree mill. Has no authority to issue valid degrees.

Earlstown University New York Degree mill, sells degrees outright.

European Management University International Denmark; also operates in Sweden, U.S. and China Degree mill

Heritage International University possibly UK, possibly Florida Degree mill, does not exist.

Hill University Degree mill. Probably sells degrees from the UAE.

IOND University Hawaii, Japan, Philippines Degree mill closed in Hawaii by court order. No evidence of legal authority to issue degrees valid in Japan. Considered a degree mill by Japanese experts. No evidence of legal authority to issue degrees valid in Philippines. Claim of affiliation with University of Lodz in Poland is denied by U. of Lodz. All degrees should be considered invalid.

Ivory Carlson University Minnesota Degree mill operating without approval in Minnesota, apparently based in India.

North Lexington University Massachusetts Degree mill. Has no authority to issue degrees.

Regus University California, DC, Texas Degree mill, lacks degree-granting authority. Operates from Texas as of late 2009.

Rutherford University Wyoming, British Columbia, Swaziland, South Africa, China Degree mill. No authority to issue degrees. Formerly labeled Stratford International University.

University of Honiara New Zealand Degree mill

University of Honorius New Zealand Degree mill

Williamstown University unknown Degree mill.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:34 am

Dexter Dexter wrote:Incorrect, they still call a number of school mills.


Dang, you're right! When did that change?

A quick look indicates that they've applied the Oregon regs (no legal authority or else a bad judgment against the school) to some of the degree providers on the list. How 'bout that! Almeda is a good example, ordered to cool its jets by Florida a few years ago. It ddn't very much. And it's pissed off! from https://almedauniversity.org/application/value.html
The Facts

Almeda University is accredited by the Council for Distance Education Accreditation, the Association for Online Academic Excellence , and Interfaith Education Ministries . These independent, reputable agencies testify to the integrity and utility of an Almeda education. However, since none of these entities are a component of the public sector, Almeda does not qualify for "regional" accreditation. Such a process costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, prohibiting small schools from being able to obtain this label. Thus, Almeda degrees are not recognized in the states of Florida, Illinois, Oregon, New Jersey, North Dakota, Washington, and Idaho. The implications of this distinction are as follows:

Almeda University is unable to participate in the Federal Student Loan/Financial Aid program.
Almeda University is not authorized to accept the GI Bill.
Almeda University is unable to guarantee acceptance of its degree programs in other postsecondary institutions.
Corporations are not required to recognize degrees from Almeda University.
Because of public sector nepotism toward traditional colleges, employers in this realm may not recognize the legitimacy of your Almeda degree. Such a decision is completely arbitrary, and thus may vary depending on your particular state or municipality. Nonetheless, we must caution you against attempting to use an Almeda degree for any employment related to the public sector. Therefore, we strongly recommend you do not rely on your Almeda education to fulfill the requirements of a public sector job in any of the above mentioned states. Because private industry does not benefit from the accreditation fees paid to the government, private employers are more progressive in realizing the value and contribution of smaller private schools and private accreditation bodies. However, while degrees from Almeda University are accepted in most private sector companies, employees are further advised to check with their current or prospective employers regarding the acceptability of an Almeda University degree.



Of course, the fact that a few providers on the list are identified as mills, but most are not, might lead one to assume that the list enumerates schools whose degrees can't be used in Oregon, PERIOD.

To riff on material posted earlier, take a look at this list:

    Goebels
    Schroedinger
    Oedipus
    Caesar
    Disraeli
    Michael
    Caedmon
    Aelfric

All I had in mind was names with a digraph. But conspiracy theorists abound, so other interpretations are afoot, I expect.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:57 am

Excuse the exhumation; I know this thread has been dead a long time. The reason it's back -- I've noticed the Cherub College website is now gone.

Darn. I took a liking to that school -- and I liked what its President, Dr. Joan Rolle-King, had to say about it. The school's name still appears on a couple of local ad-sites, but I'm not at all sure it's still in business.

Chalk up a "victory" for the ODA? Who knows... :sad:

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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:41 am

Whoops! Looks like I missed something. There is a Cherub Christian Academy - A Seventh Day Adventist school. Dr. Rolle-King is shown as principal. It's at a different address, but has the same phone number as Cherub College. Looks like a wholly different school to Cherub College - secondary school level. Nothing about ODA on its site, naturally.

It's here: http://cherubacademy.page.tl/Contact.htm

Also, an article about the standing of the school in the Bahamas General Certificate of Secondary Education exams -- F+. :sad:

http://www.thenassauguardian.com/index. ... &Itemid=27 (second-last paragraph)

Oh well... that puts this topic back to permanent sleep. Rest in everlasting peace, Threadnik! :sad:

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