Cherub College complains about ODA

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Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:13 pm

Amusing itme on the "Cherub College" web site:

Cherub College - Accreditations
NOTICE ON ACCREDITATION
It has been brought to the attention of the Board of Fellows that the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization has listed Cherub College as a diploma mill. Subsequently, further, other private bodies; individual and corporate alike have done the same. Please do disregard these listings as inaccurate and currently the Board of Fellows is seeking legal action against the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization for libel. In the upcoming months, further information will be provided.

Cherub College is registered and approved to offer degree programs by the Ministry of Education of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas. Section 30 of the Education Act of 1970 empowers the Ministry of Education the authority to validate, register and approveprograms of higher learning in the Commonwealth of the Bahamas. For further information regarding the recognition of Cherub College by the Bahamian Ministry of Education, contact :


Cherub lets you "pay your full tuition upfront and never have to worry about making a monthly payment." Other plans are available, and payments can be made by credit card.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby nosborne48 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:33 pm

I was unable to find any information concerning exactly what the school teaches. Plenty about how to pay tuition and a thorough description of their commencement ceremony, though. Not to mention how wonderful distance education is.

I'm feeling left out. Taft Law doesn't even DO commencement. (sniff.)

'Course, Taft DOES offer actual coursework and degrees. But no bumper stickers/rear window decals. Bet Cherub could sell me a bunch of those.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Dexter Dexter » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:03 am

g-gollin wrote:Amusing itme on the [url=http://www.cherubcollege.edu.bs/index.php?
Cherub lets you "pay your full tuition upfront and never have to worry about making a monthly payment." Other plans are available, and payments can be made by credit card.


Almost all colleges allow you to pay in full upfront or make payments on payment plans with a credit card. Is there something unethical I'm missing?
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby SteveFoerster » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:36 am

Good, and I hope Cherub wins. ODA is too lazy to correct mistakes on their lists, and they deserve to have a judge light a fire under their ass. One case in point, they still list Virginia International University as unaccredited, even though VIU has been ACICS accredited for years and ODA's been notified of this almost as long with links to prove it. Similarly, they say Saint George University International is in Grenada, when all that means is that they can't tell the difference between that and the perfectly respectable St. George's University that really is in Grenada. They've been told that too and didn't give a crap about that either.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby g-gollin » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:57 am

Dexter Dexter wrote:
g-gollin wrote:Amusing itme on the [url=http://www.cherubcollege.edu.bs/index.php?
Cherub lets you "pay your full tuition upfront and never have to worry about making a monthly payment." Other plans are available, and payments can be made by credit card.


Almost all colleges allow you to pay in full upfront or make payments on payment plans with a credit card. Is there something unethical I'm missing?


Why do you say "unethical?"

Lots of airline miles, paying for four years of college on the ol' MasterCard. Maybe enough to fly to Seborga!
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:12 pm

nosborne48 wrote:I was unable to find any information concerning exactly what the school teaches. Plenty about how to pay tuition and a thorough description of their commencement ceremony, though. Not to mention how wonderful distance education is....

Bet Cherub could sell me a bunch of those. (rear-window decals, bumper-stickers)

I dunno, Nosborne. I had to dig a little to find it, but Cherub describes itself as a liberal arts college, with a broad-based curriculum that allows students to follow the connections between different disciplines, e.g. writing, literature, psychology etc. This looks to me like a real B&M school, mostly for locals. I think its academic programs may be 'way more developed than its web-presence, which is very perfunctory. They don't appear to be anxious to collect money from people overseas for either distance ed. or bogus diplomas. They mention their grads have gone on to further study at a bunch of well-known universities, including the one I went to, about five miles from the college where I'm sitting right now. Well, there's quite a bunch of West Indian students there - maybe some of them did go to Cherub. I'm not sure.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, for now. I'm with Steve. If they're legit (as I think they are) - I hope they litigate and litigate and litigate the ODA until it doesn't have a pair of skivvies to stand up in! If I'm wrong - so be it.

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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:51 pm

Here's a bit from Cherub's general info page:

Cherub College is a Private, Independent, Non-Government Sponsored, Non-Profit Liberal Arts College established in 1999. The College is incorporated as a Not-For-Profit Educational Institution in the Commonwealth of the Bahamas and is recognized as a public educational charity under the laws of the Bahamas.

The College awards Associate of Arts and Bachelor of Arts degrees in a spectrum of fields. Additionally, the College offers some joint degrees in conjunction and collaboration with other institutions in the United States and the United Kingdom. Cherub College also serves as a testing center for several examinations such as the SAT, GRE, and GMAT. The College has numerous established links with tertiary institutions in the Caribbean, North America, and Europe and its credits and degrees are accepted by countless Universities and Colleges in those regions. The Vision of the College is to become the premier Post-secondary educational institution in the Commonwealth of the Bahamas and has aggressively embarked upon a major expansion of program offerings, research activities, and physical activities in addition to continuing the present e-learning methodologies and alternative education into our repertoire of strategies for delivering instruction.


A bit overblown and self-aggrandizing, perhaps, but as I said before - I think the school is at least "real" and appears to have some degree-granting authority, if you look at the rest of its accreditation page here: http://www.cherubcollege.edu.bs/index.p ... &Itemid=98 From what's here, Cherub College doesn't seem to grant anything higher than a Bachelor's. Even says it's incorporated as a non-profit! :) No Princeton, but it doesn't look (to me) like a "random goatbag" either. Time will tell. Good luck against the ODA! Go, Cherubs! :)

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Re: Another sign of legitimacy, perhaps?

Postby johann » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:39 pm

I note Cherub maintains an articulation agreement with 80-year-old Berkeley College, NY and NJ - here: http://berkeleycollege.edu/berkeley_bc/1944.htm

All Berkeley locations except one (pending) are RA (Middle States) accredited, NY degrees approved by NY Board of Regents; the Paralegal studies programs are ABA approved. According to Cherub, the agreement means all Associate and Bachelor program credits earned at one school are valid at the other. Cherub's looking less-and-less like a mill all the time....

Hold on to your briefs, ODA lawyers - I hope it's a VERY bumpy (and horribly expensive for the ODA) ride! :)

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Re: Another sign of legitimacy, perhaps?

Postby g-gollin » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:08 pm

johann wrote:Hold on to your briefs, ODA lawyers - I hope it's a VERY bumpy (and horribly expensive for the ODA) ride! :)
Johann


That's absolutely ridiculous. ODA helped take down St. Regis and some of the University Degree Program mills. Rather than just wishing to have a regulatory body that you view as imperfect be destroyed in an expensive lawsuit (paid for by taxpayers), why not document your concerns in depth, and at length, and contact ODA to arrange for a (phone) meeting in which you make your case?

If you don't hear back from them, be persistent. I read some complaining not long ago in a post or two about the time it took to eceive (or not) a response. Contact them, and follow up.

It's been my experience that good information, properly organized and presented, can be very effective at bringing about good ends.

I don't think you want to have higher education oversight eliminated, since doing that makes it even more difficult to deal with clever, brazen mills that are out there in the world.
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Re: Another sign of legitimacy, perhaps?

Postby SteveFoerster » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:07 am

g-gollin wrote:That's absolutely ridiculous. ODA helped take down St. Regis and some of the University Degree Program mills. Rather than just wishing to have a regulatory body that you view as imperfect be destroyed in an expensive lawsuit (paid for by taxpayers), why not document your concerns in depth, and at length, and contact ODA to arrange for a (phone) meeting in which you make your case? If you don't hear back from them, be persistent. I read some complaining not long ago in a post or two about the time it took to eceive (or not) a response. Contact them, and follow up. It's been my experience that good information, properly organized and presented, can be very effective at bringing about good ends.

I wish. ODA has been contacted multiple times about the mistakes I listed above. Their most recent answer was to demand VIU and St. George's pay an investigation fee, when all the evidence they needed was already supplied to them. That's not public service, that's a shakedown.

I don't think you want to have higher education oversight eliminated, since doing that makes it even more difficult to deal with clever, brazen mills that are out there in the world.

Making ODA fix incorrect information is hardly eliminating higher education oversight. Besides, if accreditation is important to you, and you're not sure a school has it, click this link and check it for free: http://www.chea.org/search/search.asp?flag=1. It's just not that hard.
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Re: Another sign of legitimacy, perhaps?

Postby g-gollin » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:25 am

SteveFoerster wrote: ODA has been contacted multiple times about the mistakes I listed above.


So keep at it, and insist on a response. How long did it take the DI folks and others to obliterate the St. Regis monster? Maybe 3 or 4 years. And lots of people were involved, sharing and moving information.
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Re: Another sign of legitimacy, perhaps?

Postby SteveFoerster » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:32 pm

g-gollin wrote:
SteveFoerster wrote: ODA has been contacted multiple times about the mistakes I listed above.

So keep at it, and insist on a response. How long did it take the DI folks and others to obliterate the St. Regis monster? Maybe 3 or 4 years. And lots of people were involved, sharing and moving information.

They shouldn't have to be told a fourth time; it's their job to get it right one of the first three times. And like I said, they already answered, and their answer is that an institution has to cut them a check for an "investigation fee" to get off of their inaccurate, publicly promulgated list. I realize you and I have fundamental ideological differences about the proper role of the state on these things, fair enough, but you don't have to be one of the Koch brothers to recognize that what's happening nowadays at ODA is not good government.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby Hungry Ghost » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:18 pm

I've never heard of Cherub before this thread. But my initial impression is that this looks like a good-faith effort that's largely intended for Bahamian students. It does offer distance learning, but that makes sense given the geography of the Bahamas, where a small population lives on many islands scattered across a wide area.

The DL program is described in some detail and it actually sounds like they've given some thought to its design:

http://www.cherubcollege.edu.bs/index.p ... &Itemid=61

As to whether this thing has the equivalent of recognized American accreditation, I'm less sure. I'd equate its Bahamian license to operate as something more equivalent to California approval. Cherub says that they are a member of the Association of Caribbean Tertiary Institutions (ACTI), which I'm unfamiliar with. It sounds like a professional organization rather than an accreditor. (The West Indies area really should come together to form a widely-recognized region-wide equivalent of an American regional accreditor.)

All in all, I'd say that if the ODA is calling Cherub a 'diploma mill', then that might indeed be too harsh and dismissive, unless the ODA has damning information about Cherub that I'm not privy to. The worst I would say, if I was Oregon, would be that Cherub lacks accreditation that's recognized in Oregon.

It's a logical non-sequitur to leap from that defensible proposition to the more extreme conclusion that a school is academically worthless, let alone that it's a scam and a fraud.
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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:10 pm

Hungry Ghost wrote:It's a logical non-sequitur to leap from that defensible proposition to the more extreme conclusion that a school is academically worthless, let alone that it's a scam and a fraud.

Indeed it is a non-sequitur - but the ODA has uh ...leapt again. See the various prior examples of their "leaps" cited by Steve Foerster. Someone should let the ODA know (in court - in a costly way that they will understand) that finger-pointing is not research. Not a bad thing for everyone including me to remember, come to think of it.

And no, Dr. Gollin - I don't want ODA eliminated - just want 'em to be punitively smartened up for multiple instances of calling names when they shouldn't - Cherub and those situations cited by Steve Foerster. Stupidity and intransigence are not yet capital crimes - no need to eliminate ODA unless that changes. They just need to smarten up and not be so indifferent when they make a bad call - like VIU, for instance. Not every school they point their damning finger at is St. Regis or its equivalent.

Lesson for the ODA - work has its rewards, but they take time. The rewards of laziness and indifference? Yeah - you can have them right now!

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Re: Cherub College complains about ODA

Postby johann » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:28 pm

johann wrote:finger-pointing is not research.

I'd be willing to bet that between HG and myself, more research was done on Cherub in, oh-- probably less than an hour all told -- than the ODA has done on Cherub since day one! If a shakedown, as per Steve's account, is the best they can do, maybe I should change my tune and actually want them (but not higher ed. oversight in general) eliminated!

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