Guess what this is

Discussions on the value or merit of unaccredited programs and institutions.

Re: Guess what this is

Postby Rich Douglas » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:53 am

After 9 days, is the OP going to provide the answer in the thread's title?
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WOOF! WOOF! WOOF! WOOF!

Postby Boris DeSpyda » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:02 am

Rich Douglas wrote:After 9 days, is the OP going to provide the answer in the thread's title?



[Crickets chirping.]



Oh George, are you too ashamed to answer your own question?

Let's compare all the schools on your little "degree mill" list to all the schools on this list:
http://www.asic.org.uk/collegedirectoryUK.htm

Any matches?

WOOOOPSY!! Somebody screwed the pooch again!
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby Eric » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:57 pm

Who is this ASIC - By looking initially at their site I don't see that they are government recognized.
Are they independent body? If so their accreditation may not be of any value.

If I missed something please guide me to a link that proves otherwise.
QISAN is the trading name for QISAN Limited. (Reg No 4910836). - And so what, its easy to start such membership association / organization. I'm sure its needed service and has value but its not an accrediting body recognized by ministry of Education.
Eric

"The best social program is a good job,"
President Ronald Reagan
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby johann » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:57 pm

Right, Eric!

Looking at the ASIC list, they appear to be the "independent body" as you expressed it, that accredited Warnborough College. I note that Warnborough (in any form) did NOT make it to the large list of Government-authorized (not necessarily degree-granting) registered sponsors that Trans Atlantic and some of the other ASIC-approved schools ARE on, here: http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... seducation

So - ASIC accredited an arm of Warnborough. And ASIC approval does not always correspond to Government approval. Uh-huh....

Does that mean ALL the schools on the list are tarred with the same brush?

Johann
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby g-gollin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:06 pm

The list was described to me as the internal list of diploma mills used by the British government for its own purposes. It is possible that "diploma mills" might have been used in an imprecise fashion, where "degree provider of unacceptably low quality" would have been the actual intent.

About ASIC: see the following article from last summer.

Man given job of closing bogus colleges was sacked by university, Andrew Norfolk , London Times Online, June 29, 2009.
A company awarded an important role in the Government's attempt to shut down hundreds of bogus colleges is run by a man who was dismissed from his post at a university, The Times has discovered.

Maurice Dimmock is the director and chief executive of an organisation that inspects and accredits private colleges which want to admit foreign students. The Accreditation Service for International Colleges (ASIC) has given 180 institutions the stamp of approval since he set it up in 2007.

Among them is a Manchester college that The Times exposed last month as the front for an immigration scam which helped 1,000 fake students to enter or stay in Britain.

The head office of ASIC, one of seven government-approved accreditation bodies, is a semi-detached house in a village near Middlesbrough. The company has five staff. Its directors are Mr. Dimmock, 59, and his wife, Margaret, 52. The company secretary is her 78-year-old father.

Until 2003 Mr Dimmock was the director of international operations at Northumbria University, with responsibility for overseas students. He and the university have refused to discuss why his employment was terminated, but The Times has established that the Home Office received, and ignored, concerns about ASIC and Mr. Dimmock before it granted the company a contract. Northumbria University wrote to the Home Office in May 2007 to question the role the company was about to be given in distinguishing between genuine and bogus colleges. Two months later Universities UK, representing Britain's 133 universities, wrote to Liam Byrne, the Immigration Minister, to "express concern about the decision to approve ASIC as one of the accreditation bodies within the new immigration system".

In a letter to the Home Affairs Select Committee, which has responded to articles in The Times by holding an inquiry into bogus colleges, Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe, chief executive of Universities UK, raised further doubts about ASIC. She said: "There is a lack of information and transparency about (ASIC's) management, governance and financial structures. Several of the colleges that it accredits have been associated with inappropriate activities."

In November, ASIC accredited King's College of Management, Manchester, which claimed to have 67 students. The Times disclosed last month that it had enrolled 1,178 foreigners and was offering places to another 1,575. Individuals at the college were selling diplomas and faking attendance records to fool the authorities into granting students leave to stay in Britain.

Mr. Dimmock told The Times that ASIC had rejected 15 of the 195 colleges that it had inspected, including Manchester College of Professional Studies. It claimed to have 50 students, but secretly enrolled 1,797, including 8 of the 10 Pakistani citizens arrested in April for suspected involvement in an al-Qaeda terror plot.

Mr. Dimmock said that ASIC used 25 inspectors, many of them former university professors experienced in international education. Their attempts to separate genuine colleges from those involved in immigration fraud were hampered, he said, by the Home Office's refusal to tell ASIC how many student visas were issued for each college it inspects. "We don't see ourselves purely as acting as policemen. We are there to identify those colleges which are genuine, as far as we can see," he said.

A UK Border Agency spokesman confirmed that concerns about ASIC had been passed to the Home Office, but said that the Home Office relied on the recommendations of Ofsted in determining which accreditation bodies should receive contracts.

An Ofsted spokewoman said that it had assessed ASIC before it became an approved accreditation body in 2007 and was "satisfied that it was operating in a satisfactory manner".

There is no suggestion that most of the 180 colleges accredited by ASIC are linked to immigration scams.

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Yoodle yoodle yoodle!

Postby g-gollin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:18 pm

Boris DeSpyda wrote:...too ashamed.. screwed the pooch again!


Such a classy fellow deserves to have others unfamiliar with "Boris the Spider" read John Entwistle's prescient description:

Look, he's crawling up my wall
Black and hairy, very small
Now he's up above my head
Hanging by a little thread

Boris the spider
Boris the spider

Now he's dropped on to the floor
Heading for the bedroom door
Maybe he's as scared as me
Where's he gone now, I can't see

Boris the spider
Boris the spider

Creepy, crawly
Creepy, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly

There he is wrapped in a ball
Doesn't seem to move at all
Perhaps he's dead, I'll just make sure
Pick this book up off the floor

Boris the spider
Boris the spider

Creepy, crawly
Creepy, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly

He's come to a sticky end
Don't think he will ever mend
Never more will he crawl 'round
He's embedded in the ground

Boris the spider
Boris the spider


So satisfy our curiosity and tell us who you really are, please. Otherwise we'll all assume you're a bankrupt Libertarian in SoCal.
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby johann » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:55 pm

Well, well!

Yes - turns out they (ASIC) WERE approved by the Government (Home Office) after all, as an accreditor of sponsor-schools. I went back to their site and read this, just before I returned to read Dr. G's posting:

"All private education providers will need to be accredited by one of a limited number of Agency-approved accreditation bodies before they can qualify for as sponsors. The Home Office enlisted the assistance of Ofsted to help it determine which accreditation bodies provide an appropriate test of the bona fides of an educational institution and the following accreditation bodies have now been approved:

Accreditation UK - which offers an accreditation service for English language centres;
BAC - the British Accreditation Council - which offers a more general accreditation service to cover a wide range of different educational establishments;

ASIC - the Accreditation Service for International Colleges - which also offers a general accreditation service to cover a wide range of different educational establishments. "


And NOW someone tells Dr. G. that ASIC's entire list is used as a "Government List of Degree Mills?" Doesn't say much for the British Government, does it?
(1) Many/most of those ASIC-approved schools are STILL Government approved as sponsors. (Even after they've cut the sponsor list in half.)

(2) Maybe (for someone who has a Guggenheim to research "degree mills") Dr. Gollin was a bit too eager to believe, instead of research?
I don't have a Ph.D. or a Guggenheim - but I DO believe that RESEARCH should precede PUBLICATION! (If I'd followed that 100% myself, I'd have known earlier that ASIC was a Government-approved accreditor!) :D

(3) The ASIC schools we've discussed were approved to teach legit qualifications OTHER than degrees. Whatever the British Government or Dr. G's acquaintance may call it, it's definitely NOT a "degree mill" or even a "substandard degree" list. The British Government should call it "a list of schools approved by an accreditor that we authorized - perhaps incompetently."

Johann

(And I have no idea who Boris is - I'm a derelict old-age pensioner and DL grad from the frozen wastes of Canada! My younger grand-children like your nursery-rhymes, Dr. Gollin, but as for me -- not so much! :) )
Last edited by johann on Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby g-gollin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:06 pm

johann wrote:And NOW someone tells Dr. G. that ASIC's entire list is used as a "Government List of Degree Mills?"


The ASIC list is here: http://www.asic.org.uk/collegedirectoryUK.htm. It is not the same as the list I posted at the start of this thread.

johann wrote:...random snarky things and admission of ignorance of Boris the Spider...


"Boris the Spider" is a screamingly funny song by The Who. There is even a Wikipedia article about the song.

Question for Boris DeSpyda: do you interpret the posting of John Entwistle's lyrics as a death threat, or just a warning about the perils of literacy?
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby johann » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:47 pm

g-gollin wrote:"Boris the Spider" is a screamingly funny song by The Who.


"Screamingly funny" is subjective. I wrote "snarky things?" --Well, OK - I'll accept that. I'm a retired bill collector. Goes with the territory.

What is NOT subjective is: There are a considerable number of schools on that "degree mill list" - right through to Zaskin College - that:

1. Were accredited by ASIC or other agencies approved by the British Government.

2. Remain to this day on the Home office "Approved Sponsor" list

3. Do not offer degrees.

These factors DEFINITELY diminish its value as a "Degree Mill" or "substandard degree provider" list.

Johann
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby g-gollin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:14 pm

If you compile a table of the degree providers and the bodies that recognize them I will send it to the source of the list I posted. Research, man, nothing beats it.
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby johann » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:57 pm

George -

You ask me for a "list of degree providers" and the bodies that recognize them.

As I (and others) have said at least three times in this thread, the apparently-legit schools we are asking questions about do not offer degree qualifications.

However, I will do as asked. It will take me a few days to get finished, but I will send you a list of:

Schools that are

(1) On your posted list AND
(2) Accredited by ASIC or one of several other orgs. approved to do so by the British Government AND
(3) Still on the approved sponsor list.

We've discussed four or five already and there are PLENTY more.

Unlike yours, my "research" - if you want to call this simple tabulation exercise "research" - is unfunded. Just make sure you give proper credit for it, when you hand it over. Don't worry - I'm not running away!

Johann
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Re: Guess what this is

Postby johann » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:00 pm

George -

Just thought I should add a note of apology for the delay - and explain why your list will take a day or two.

I'm OLD - and we don't have Internet access at the old-age home, so I have to take the bus to my old College to do the web lookups to verify accreditors etc. (I'm there right now.) It does take time - but I don't mind; it gives me something to do besides watch space cartoons in the common room at "The Home".

I've taken your list and the ASIC list home to shorten the job.

Sorry for the wait --

Johann
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course providers, then

Postby g-gollin » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:11 pm

johann wrote:..."list of degree providers" and the bodies that recognize them...


Reword that to "course providers" please.

johann wrote:Unlike yours, my "research" - if you want to call this simple tabulation exercise "research" - is unfunded. Just make sure you give proper credit for it, when you hand it over.


My Guggenheim Fellowship is to support the writing of a book about the St. Regis case. I did not request funds for other purposes.

Are you really expressing a concern that I would try to take credit for the work you will do assembling the documentation you've described?

You will need to get your contact information to me, along with the material you collate, so you can be reached directly by the Brits.

GG
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Ta-DA! The list. Many "Dogclosets" "UN-galoumfed!"

Postby johann » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:17 pm

George:

In (wise) words from another forum, you have INDEED been handed an exploding cigar!

You can tell the Brits - MI6, Scotland Yard, Home-Made Security, whoever - that the "list" is a complete crock. By the way, I AM a Brit, myself - even after nearly 60 years in Canada, I'm still an Englishman. I'm from (where else?) PALMERS GREEN, North London. In fact, I even lived on the same street (Green Lanes) where the infamous "University of Palmers Green" had its mail-drop, many years later.

Before the "list" of accredited, sponsor-approved schools, let's look at a couple of supposedly-bogus Universities. "Charles Strut Univ. would seem to be a typo for the well-regarded, legit Australian Charles STURT University, q.v. http://www.csu.edu.au I am unable to find a "mill" called "Heriots University" but I easily found one of the pioneers in distance MBA courses - Heriot-Watt University (Edinburgh) http://www.hw.ac.uk

As for "real" mills, the list is totally inadequate. For instance, I see Brenwick, but where is its ugly twin sister, Glencullen. They were all part of the same Cyprus-Romania-Palmers Green-Boston-Rabbi thing. C'mon -- you can't have one without the other?

Here's my list (from your list) of schools - accredited by agencies approved by the British Government and presently on the Government's approved sponsors list:

The Central College of London
City Banking College
City College of Management and IT
Concepts College
College of IT and E-Commerce
Kings Langley College of Management
London City College
London College of Business and Computing
London College of Business and Technology
London College of Commerce
London College of Computing
London College of Management and Science
London College of Management and IT
London College of Research
London School of Management
London School of Management and Technology
London School of Science and Technology
North London College of Business Studies
Transatlantic College
Zaskin College

My list is not complete - but it's plenty to discredit YOUR list - something that urgently needs to be done, before some legit schools sue its originators or the promulgators! It looks worse than a pencil-draft of that thing that came out of Oregon, years back. The reasons it's not complete are:

(1) I KNOW there are more accredited schools from your list that made it to "approved sponsors" but the list itself has some names with VERY slight differences, so I omitted them.
(2) I got tired of doing your job for you. I did the ASIC list and Zaskin College. There are three more accreditors I could have checked. Go ahead...you do it!

While we're on it - you seem to like nonsense lyrics - here' something right up your alley...
Remember "galoumfing" - something you accused Sheila Danzig of doing - and stated (in these pages) you came up with...

There's an OLD OLD nursery-rhyme with the line "and froggies go Galoumf-galoumf."

well, you may THINK you invented/discovered it, George.

Goodbye from the "alte kockers heim." (That's roughly "the old farts' home" -where I live, for anybody who needs a translation.)

Oh, crap! I'm missing the Jetsons! Johann over and out!

Johann
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yoodle yoodle

Postby g-gollin » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:39 pm

The list is not "my" list.

For your information to be useful, please include the name of the organization that recognizes each school next to the name of the school.

You wrote: "I got tired of doing your job for you." You are unfamiliar with my job description.

You wrote: "well, you may THINK you invented/discovered it [the amusing lyrics to another verse]" I did not invent, nor do I think I invented those lyrics.

johann wrote:The Central College of London...
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