Pennsylvania State Licensed - looks good to me.

[ShotoJuku]

Thanks Johann!!

[johann]

Hi

I received a prompt and courteous reply from Lion Investigation Academy. Here it is, in part:

"We regret to inform you that at this time we are only offering the Private Investigations Diploma Program."

So - Gabe was correct, no Associate Degree program at present. From all appearances, a fine, professionally-run career school.

Johann

[Koalmnr]

I seem to be missing the point here? Most states (all that I know of at least) have a level of education that is below the degree granting level such as PI, lock smithing, automotive repair, secretarialy, etc. Some of these programs also have DL components.

Some of these programs (such as the PI and vocational nursing programs) do lead to licensure. But do any of these offere transferrable credits or degrees?

[Hungry Ghost]

I seem to be missing the point here?

You aren't the only one.

Most states (all that I know of at least) have a level of education that is below the degree granting level such as PI, lock smithing, automotive repair, secretarialy, etc.

All states have post-secondary schools that teach truck-driving, bartending, cosmetology, massage and no end of similar job-related skills.

There's going to be some state oversight mechanism for them and they typically need some kind of state operating license.

Some of these programs (such as the PI and vocational nursing programs) do lead to licensure. But do any of these offere transferrable credits or degrees?

Most of them just award diplomas or certificates of completion, but some of them do award academic credit and associates degrees, competing with community-college vocational programs. We commonly see that in fields like dental-assisting. There are accreditors like ACCSC that specialize in schools like this. ACICS and DETC started out by accrediting these kind of post-secondary vocational programs as well.

Moving on to the university-level B-M-D degree-grantors there obviously needs to be some legal accomodation for new degree-granting colleges and universities that are just starting out and haven't been accredited yet. (Sometimes well-intentioned writers of new anti-degree-mill legislation totally forget that elementary point.) And there usually needs to be some lingering state authority over schools even after they have been accredited.

Some states, California prominent among them, have accomodated new degree-granting schools by licensing them under the laws that were created to regulate the broader post-secondary sector. That's what California-approval is. Unfortunately, some of these Calif-approved degree-granting start-ups proved unable and/or unwilling (for a variety of different reasons) to proceed on to conventional university accreditation and lingered on in this 'California approved' status indefinitely. Many of these offered lots of DL, got a lot of talk on the discussion boards, and more recently DETC seems to have been opening its arms to them (probably inadvisedly) as its natural customers as it tries to move upscale towards being a competitive university accreditor.

In other states, new degree-granting schools might fall under a different legal-regulatory regime than the post-secondary vocational schools and are treated separately. Many of these states seem to set the bars for degree-grantors higher, making it more difficult to start new schools than it is here in California.

I'm still not sure what to make of Pennsylvania. Johann's link delivered me to a blank page. The PA education department's home page had a link to an index of schools, by county, categorized in various ways. The 'licensed' category seemed to exclusively be the vocational non-degree-granting and assocates-level post-secondary schools.

I do know that PA has provisions for new university-level schools before they are accredited, since the Won Institute (which awards bachelors and masters degrees) was operating legally before its recent regional accreditation by Middle States. I don't know where those kind of schools are placed on the PA website though, let alone how many of them there currently are (I'd guess not very many) or what they look like. So I find it difficult to say much of anything about the PA-licensed degree-grantors (if any) since, frankly, I can't name a single one.

[John Bear]

The Pennsylvania lists look good to me. The only degree-granting one that caused a bit of head-scratching for me was the International Institute for Restorative Practices, a PO box in Bethlehem. (iirp.org) They don't seem to have their name on the door, and the street address is between Granny McCarthy's Tea Room and Celtic Restaurant and the Heavenly Hedgehog Ice Cream Parlor. But it turns out to be an interesting place, and I was glad to learn about the field of restorative practices.

Pennsylvania's main problem in this regard, I think, will be the bad and fake schools that operate from the state, but use addresses in other states. The University of Berkley is such a place, run (according to the FBI) from a garage in Erie, PA but with a "campus" at a mailbox service in Michigan. As Rich points out, Berne was another. And the dreadful Washington International University (formerly "Washington University, until the real one in Missouri got an injunction), which had been run from Bryn Mawr, PA and its "accreditation" coming from the British Virgin Islands (www.washint.edu)

[levicoff]

A few miscellaneous comments . . .

Pennsylvania has traditionally been one of the tightest states regarding regulation of academic programs. As a general rule, unaccredited degree-granting institutions have had to be evaluated by the state for licensure purposes every five years. Most, but not all of these schools, tend to lean toward the religious fields, and some historically had a doctrinal objection to accreditation at one time or another.

An example of this is Calvary Baptist Seminary in Lansdale, which comes from the BJU (Bob Jones University) school of thinking - in fact, they historically had several BJ graduates on their faculty. CBS has had one of the best graduate theological programs in the state (for those who can appreciate the Fundie line of thought), but for years avoided accreditation because of doctrinal objections. However, even they were accredited by Middle States in 2009, as many schools around the country lessened their objections over the years. (I often used the CBS library when I was in the Union program and teaching at Biblical Seminary, a few miles from CBS.)

Today's accreditation environment is certainly different from the mindset that was going around in the early 90's, when the prestigious Westminster Theological Seminary got into hot water with Middle States because their board of directors lacked gender diversity. As I recall, Westminster gave into MSA, although I had the impression that they didn't really need to do so.

Regarding Joe Alercia - he's a classical, old-fashioned private investigator. At one time, his school was accredited by one of the CHEA-recognized trade school accreditors, but it's always been largely a one-man show. (My oldest brother, who is a PI, has worked with Joe at one time or another.) I think their current status is merely a matter of Joe taking a more laid back approach as he ages. Nonetheless, in the PI field, degrees have never been a major issue - as in music, for example, it's not a matter of credentials as much as who you studied with. And H.G. is right - fields ranging from barber/cosmetology studies to massage have never been degree-based in terms of credentials (or even licensure), but diploma based.

Incidental note: For certification as a weapons instructor under Pennsylvania legislation, the State Police have traditionally required at least an associate's degree. During the time that Joe Alercia issued degrees, the police did recognize Lion Investigation Academy degrees, even when unaccredited, as an acceptable credential for instructor certification.

Final note: One of the reasons Pennsylvania has such a good track record is the head honcho in the Department of Education for licensure licensure issues, Warren Evans. Warren retired several years ago, and I don't know how effective his successors have been in this area (remember, I'm retired from this field). I met Warren when I organized the Institute on Religion and Law back in 1991, and had to clear the use of the word Institute with the state DoEd for registration purposes (certifying that IRL would not purport to issue degrees, etc.). In Pennsylvania, terms like college, university, seminary, and institute are still regulated, and their use must be approved by DoEd.

By the way, I'm delighted to see that the Won Institute achieved MSA accreditation. They are located only six blocks from where I was partially raised (I spent my high school years in Glenside) and always seemed to have a very credible operation. Not my particular cup of tea, but the school has always had solid programs.

[johann]

Hi

. Johann's link delivered me to a blank page.

Sorry, HG -

I didn't realize. It appears the link won't go past the opening page, directly to the Associate Degree providers. So here's the cure (easy).

1. Go to the linked site: http://edna.ed.state.pa.us/EntitySearchResult.asp (Yes, it's nearly blank).
2. Hit the "Entity Search" and a category-listing will come up.
3. The "Specialized Associate Degrees" listing is under "Higher Education" near the lower right of the "categories."
4. Hit it and up comes your list. Sorry, no way I can find to get you there more directly.

Johann

[johann]

Some of these programs (such as the PI and vocational nursing programs) do lead to licensure. But do any of these offer transferrable credits or degrees?

I think all the programs I cited (80-odd) offer ASB or AST degrees. Transferrable credits/degrees? I don't know very much as you've realized by now, but here's my take:

100% transfer credit would be an extremely infrequent scenario - if at all. I'm sure you mavens of DD know that ASB's and AST's don't "travel" as well as A.A. and A.S. degrees.

Course-by-course transfer credit would probably go this way: NA degree - credit for ACE-reviewed courses. (Some NA distance degree programs, like Penn Foster - up to 90% or better ACE content. Some of these PA State-Licensed - probably less - I haven't checked.) Of course, course-by-course credit from the Licensed-but-unaccredited schools would probably be minimal-to-none elsewhere.

My point: the usual grad of these BVTDs (Business-Vocational-Tech-Degrees) isn't primarily concerned with transfer prospects. (S)he earns the degree rather than the career diploma in the hope it will provide

(a) more knowledge and skills, leading to
(b) an "edge" over the career diploma in eliciting a "when can you start?" The AST or ASB degree is hopefully a "job-getter," not a gateway to another school, for a new translation of Proclus, or proving the Riemann hypothesis.

I was just impressed to find Pennsylvania had so many State-Licensed degree programs of this kind available. Reasonable cost, marketable skill, grads
job-ready.

Johann

[johann]

Pennsylvania's main problem in this regard, I think, will be the bad and fake schools that operate from the state, but use addresses in other states.

Yes indeed, Dr. Bear - big problems, but not actually problems with Pennsylvania State Licensing, are they? I asked Dr. Douglas about Berne earlier:

Thanks. Didn't know that, about Berne, Rich.... Can you recall if they were actually State-licensed?

Aren't these problems of enforcement re: unlicensed schools, rather than licensing issues? I've seen no evidence that Pennsylvania licenses bad schools. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the "bad" schools cited EVER had a license from the State of Pennsylvania, did it? We can't blame the DMV directly for unlicensed drivers. Just asking...

Johann

[John Bear]

johann: "Can you recall if [Berne was] actually State-licensed?"

John: I don't know . . . but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. They were (as far as I know) the only really dreadful US-run school to get into the International Handbook of Universities. The editor at the time, Mme. Rabreau, told me that her hands were tied: they were "fully accredited" by St. Kitts and Nevis (where they rented a motel for four weeks each summer for a non-required residential session), and the IHU (at the time, at least) felt they could not be in the position of saying that the accreditation of one UN member nation was inferior to that of another. (When I visited Berne's umcampus once, in New Hampshire, I found two modest rooms upstairs in a shopping mall.)

Berne morphed into Bernelli University, now in Alexandria, VA (http://www.bernelli.edu). I found nothing on the website about Berne, but I did find that they are one of the few on-line universities with a mascot, Bizzbee:

[Isadore Weisberg]

Berne morphed into Bernelli University, now in Alexandria, VA (http://www.bernelli.edu). I found nothing on the website about Berne, but I did find that they are one of the few on-line universities with a mascot, Bizzbee.

Didn't the now-defunct Knightsbridge U have a mascot?

[Rich Douglas]

Berne morphed into Bernelli University, now in Alexandria, VA (http://www.bernelli.edu). I found nothing on the website about Berne, but I did find that they are one of the few on-line universities with a mascot, Bizzbee.

Didn't the now-defunct Knightsbridge U have a mascot?

An upside-down duck with two fake doctorates.

[nosborne48]

Upside-down? Is that so as to avoid confusion with the University of Oregon?

www.goducks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM ... LID=153778

[nosborne48]

Actually, the U. Oregon Donald Duck has just one honorary doctorate. Not fake and not two.

[Rich Douglas]

Upside-down? Is that so as to avoid confusion with the University of Oregon?

http://www.goducks.com/ViewArticle.dbml ... LID=153778

From the duck's perspective, we're upside down.