CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and NYS

General discussions concerning institutions and degree programs.

Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 2:58 am

[quote="scottae316"]It is obvious that some here have absolutely no idea of the use of the title "Doctor". In a medical setting it is usually assumed by the patient that the person addressed as "Doctor" is a MD or DO. This is not true today, for example you have a pharmacist that as a Pharm.D who is now called "Doctor", also many physical therapist now have their doctorate and are referred to as such. This is neither unethical, immoral, or illegal, but the changing face of medicine. The only "problem" is when it is a nurse who has the DNP (or even a Phd) where can lead to real confusion and at present most nurses with a DNP to not use the title "Doctor" with patients, but it is used with colleagues.[/quote]

Exactly correct Scottae. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten those posters on this forum who are totally unenlightened and/or are resistant to acknowledging this fact.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Rich Douglas » Sat May 11, 2013 11:28 am

vinny123 wrote:
Rich Douglas wrote:
I would suggest that if "Vinny123" actually did that doctorate, he'd calm down a lot regarding the topic of earning one. But people like him don't actually do it. They just talk about it.


VINNY: Douglas the bottomline is that regardless of every effort on your part to attempt to show that you knew what you were talking about regarding the subject at hand and that I was incorrect, including presenting misinformation from outdated articles and substituting your opinion for substantive facts and engaging in other ploys to corroborate your disdain of DETC doctorates, including changing the focus on ME and my degrees as noted above, you were way off course and were blatantly wrong! Now get some sleep Dougie and carry out your promise tomorrow to put me on your "foes" list so that I won't have to deal with your antics any further. I look forward to being expunged from your "friendship" list. :roll:


Again, do that doctorate and then talk. Until then, everything you have to say about the subject is as baseless as...well...everything else you have to say about everything else.

But you won't. You'll just talk.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 1:16 pm

[quote="Rich Douglas"][quote="vinny123"][quote="Rich Douglas"]

I would suggest that if "Vinny123" actually did that doctorate, he'd calm down a lot regarding the topic of earning one. But people like him don't actually do it. They just talk about it.[/quote]

VINNY: Douglas the bottomline is that regardless of every effort on your part to attempt to show that you knew what you were talking about regarding the subject at hand and that I was incorrect, including presenting misinformation from outdated articles and substituting your opinion for substantive facts and engaging in other ploys to corroborate your disdain of DETC doctorates, including changing the focus on ME and my degrees as noted above, you were way off course and were blatantly wrong! Now get some sleep Dougie and carry out your promise tomorrow to put me on your "foes" list so that I won't have to deal with your antics any further. I look forward to being expunged from your "friendship" list. :roll:[/quote]

Again, do that doctorate and then talk. Until then, everything you have to say about the subject is as baseless as...well...everything else you have to say about everything else.

But you won't. You'll just talk.[/quote]


VINNY: Dougie boy, give up! It's over. You lost this round big, big time. However don't despair YOU have a Name it and Frame it Doctorate and this credential should provide you with sufficient solace to console you. Now please, please, please keep your promise and place me on your "foes" list so that we will not have the future "pleasure" :roll: of having to do this over on another thread. Thanks, Vinny
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Rich Douglas » Sat May 11, 2013 3:24 pm

Vinny123:

Thank you for your advice. Good luck on that doctorate. I will look forward to the results of your work.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 4:07 pm

[quote="Rich Douglas"]Vinny123:

Thank you for your advice. Good luck on that doctorate. I will look forward to the results of your work.[/quote]


VINNY: Dougie, I truly hope that the above "good wishes" :roll: implies that you are placing me on your "foes", invisible non-responsive list and that you will no longer have any further inconsequential duels with me. Please Lord let this be the end to this purgatory like experience. :lol: :lol:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Hungry Ghost » Sat May 11, 2013 4:51 pm

vinny123 wrote:Hungry Ghost: Ok, then maybe you can explain it to me.

On one hand, you seem to be exulting in the idea of a counselor or social worker who lacks a clinical psychology license using the title "Doctor of Psychology" in his/her advertising. Why? What benefits are associated with advertising the degree and the title?

VINNY: HG you seem to be an intelligent guy so we have to ask ourselves why you are having so much difficulty comprehending that there are individuals at the masters level, for either personal attainment, professional growth or for enhancing their clinical skills, who wish to complete a Psy.D which is legal and ethical to use. There are no hidden agendas. It is as simple and straightforward as that.


I wasn't asking what might motivate somebody to study psychology. (That's their business, maybe they are interested in it.) I was asking about advertising. What benefit is there for non-psychologists in advertising themselves to prospective clients as 'Doctors of Psychology'?

The question is intended to highlight what I believe is a serious problem:

How can the question be answered in such a way that avoids any implication that the person doing the advertising possesses psychological expertise and competency that other counselors and social workers lack? It would seem to me that creating that impression is precisely the point of advertising one's self to the public as a 'Psy.D'.
(Again, the question isn't about earning the degree, it's about what the benefits might be in advertising it.)

HG: On the other hand, every prospective client is required to be informed that the "PsyD" degree does not imply and the counselor or social worker does not possess any special expertise or competencies in psychology. Wouldn't that disclosure, assuming that it's clearly made and that prospective clients actually understand it, undercut and contradict whatever benefits are associated with advertising the degree?

VINNY: NO! I believe that your difficulty in grasping this matter is related to your not being in this profession and/or your distrust and disdain towards DETC doctoral programs, resulting in your blocking an issue which is very clear to others in the field of mental health.


In the very first post in this thread you wrote (the highlighting is by me):

"So a graduate of this program would have to be very careful and thoroughly convey to prospective clients, in writing and verbally, as part of an Informed Consent, that they are not Psychologists and that their doctorate does not imply they have the competencies of a Psychologist or are performing the functions of a Psychologist."

How can that legally required information be made clear, without directly contradicting whatever impression advertising one's self as a 'Doctor of Psychology' was supposed to create?

On its face, the advertising seems intended to distinguish the advertiser from all the other social workers and counselors who don't have doctorates in psychology. It seems to tell the public that this professional is preferrable because of their additional training, expertise, competencies and abilities in the area of clinical psychology.

And there's this: You've accused me of hostility and bias towards DETC. But you seem to be the one who is implicitly arguing that Cal Southern Psy.D degrees are academically worthless. If the degree isn't worthless, then how can a counselor or social worker truthfully tell their prospective clients that their much-touted 'Doctor of Psychology' degree doesn't really mean that they possess the competencies of a psychologist?
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby nosborne48 » Sat May 11, 2013 5:12 pm

Speaking of "legwork", Vinney might want to look at Florida Statutes 2012 Title XXXII Chapters 490.012 and 490.014 which SPECIFICALLY forbid any person not licensed as a psychologist from using any variant of psychology or psychologist in connection with professional practice including practice as a licensed mental health counselor.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 5:48 pm

[quote="nosborne48"]Speaking of "legwork", Vinney might want to look at Florida Statutes 2012 Title XXXII Chapters 490.012 and 490.014 which SPECIFICALLY forbid any person not licensed as a psychologist from using any variant of psychology or psychologist in connection with professional practice including practice as a licensed mental health counselor.[/quote]

VINNY: At last you're not only engaging in DOUBTING but doing the legwork of an Attorney!

In fact I previously reviewed the statutes above and was the reason I followed-up by contacting the Florida Board of Counseling and Social Work to obtain their feedback as to the legality and validity of referring to themselves as " Dr." based on a National Accredited Psy.D. I related the statutes you mentioned above as well as the caveats noted in those statutes to determine whether this degree would be in violation of the statutes you mention. As repeatedly related throughout this thread I was informed that it would not as long as the holder of this degree did not misrepesent/hold themselves to the public as a Psychologist or engage in the professional practice of Psychology and was subsequently directed to the Florida statute I previously quoted indicating that this degree would allow a graduate from a Nationally Accredited doctoral Program to legally refer to themselves as "Dr".

Nosborne, since you are the quintessential doubting Thomas, I am willing to participate with you in a three way conversation with the Fl Board of Counseling and Social Work to corroborate eveything that I have posted on this thread. Please let me know if you wish to do so.
Last edited by vinny123 on Sat May 11, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 5:58 pm

[quote="Hungry Ghost"][quote="vinny123"]Hungry Ghost: Ok, then maybe you can explain it to me.

On one hand, you seem to be exulting in the idea of a counselor or social worker who lacks a clinical psychology license using the title "[b]Doctor of Psychology"[/b] in his/her advertising. Why? What benefits are associated with advertising the degree and the title?

VINNY: HG you seem to be an intelligent guy so we have to ask ourselves why you are having so much difficulty comprehending that there are individuals at the masters level, for either personal attainment, professional growth or for enhancing their clinical skills, who wish to complete a Psy.D which is legal and ethical to use. There are no hidden agendas. It is as simple and straightforward as that.[/quote]

I wasn't asking what might motivate somebody to study psychology. (That's their business, maybe they are interested in it.) I was asking about advertising. What benefit is there for non-psychologists in advertising themselves to prospective clients as '[b]Doctors of Psychology[/b]'?

The question is intended to highlight what I believe is a serious problem:

How can the question be answered in such a way that avoids any implication that the person doing the advertising possesses psychological expertise and competency that other counselors and social workers lack? It would seem to me that creating that impression is precisely the point of advertising one's self to the public as a 'Psy.D'.
(Again, the question isn't about earning the degree, it's about what the benefits might be in advertising it.)

[quote]HG: On the other hand, every prospective client is required to be informed that the "PsyD" degree does not imply and the counselor or social worker does not possess any special expertise or competencies in psychology. Wouldn't that disclosure, assuming that it's clearly made and that prospective clients actually understand it, undercut and contradict whatever benefits are associated with advertising the degree?

VINNY: NO! I believe that your difficulty in grasping this matter is related to your not being in this profession and/or your distrust and disdain towards DETC doctoral programs, resulting in your blocking an issue which is very clear to others in the field of mental health.[/quote]

In the very first post in this thread you wrote (the highlighting is by me):

"So a graduate of this program would have to be very careful and thoroughly convey to prospective clients, in writing and verbally, as part of an Informed Consent, that they are not Psychologists [b][i]and that their doctorate does not imply they have the competencies of a Psychologist or are performing the functions of a Psychologist[/i][/b]."

How can that legally required information be made clear, without directly contradicting whatever impression advertising one's self as a 'Doctor of Psychology' was supposed to create?

On its face, the advertising seems intended to distinguish the advertiser from all the other social workers and counselors who don't have doctorates in psychology. It seems to tell the public that this professional is preferrable because of their additional training, expertise, competencies and abilities in the area of clinical psychology.

And there's this: You've accused me of hostility and bias towards DETC. But you seem to be the one who is implicitly arguing that Cal Southern Psy.D degrees are academically worthless. If the degree isn't worthless, then how can a counselor or social worker truthfully tell their prospective clients that their much-touted 'Doctor of Psychology' degree doesn't really mean that they possess the competencies of a psychologist?[/quote]

VINNY: OY VEY, as my Jewish friends would say! Enough already. YOU WIN :mrgreen: . Now go to the Bartender and inform him of your victory. Btw, on your way to the bar stop off at the pharmacy and get me some excedrin. I got some headache! :wink:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Hungry Ghost » Sat May 11, 2013 6:01 pm

scottae316 wrote:It is obvious that some here have absolutely no idea of the use of the title "Doctor".


Hi Scottae. I hope that you weren't including me in that.

In a medical setting it is usually assumed by the patient that the person addressed as "Doctor" is a MD or DO. This is not true today, for example you have a pharmacist that as a Pharm.D who is now called "Doctor", also many physical therapist now have their doctorate and are referred to as such. This is neither unethical, immoral, or illegal, but the changing face of medicine.


I agree that there's nothing wrong with that. There are certainly doctoral programs in counseling and social work out there, and I have no objection at all to counselors and social workers with doctoral degrees in those subjects mentioning the degree in their advertising or to their being refered to as "doctor".

I'm a little more skeptical about counselors and social workers (or any professionals for that matter) with Ph.D's in totally unrelated subjects using the rather generic suffix in their advertising. (Most Ph.D's aren't in philosophy these days.) The problem there would be the implied suggestion that the doctorate is in their professional field and that they have more training in it than they really have. It might be more defensible if the doctorate is in a closely cognate subject. (Like lots of things, it's fuzzy in practice.)

But the biggest problems seem to arise with unlicensed individuals using specific professional degree titles associated with regulated professions.

The only "problem" is when it is a nurse who has the DNP (or even a Phd) where can lead to real confusion and at present most nurses with a DNP to not use the title "Doctor" with patients, but it is used with colleagues.


I think that the closest analogy to what's being proposed in this thread might be some paramedical professional earning a Doctor of Medicine degree somewhere, then advertising him or herself to prospective patients as an "M.D.", despite not having a license to practice medicine.

My only objection in this and the Psy.D case would be to the unlicensed individual advertising the degree while trolling for clients. I don't have any objection at all to their earning the degree (I respect that), or to clients or colleagues calling them "doctor". That's usually the other person's decision anyway and what to call people is up to them. I'm not even all that opposed to these people signing themselves as "Dr." if they want to, as long as they leave off the misleading initials at the end. (I do think that referring to one's self as "doctor" is a little pompous, but not necessarily unethical.) Somebody with a doctorate in English literature can do the same thing, I guess, so it doesn't really communicate all that much.
Last edited by Hungry Ghost on Sat May 11, 2013 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby David » Sat May 11, 2013 6:07 pm

I read the act but since my next day of law school will be my first I wonder if you could help me parse the language, Norm. Does this mean disclosing one has a doctorate that doesn't meet eligibility standards in the service of informed consent disclosure violates the title proscription?

FWIW in my estimation the requirements are modest. APA accreditation isn't required although few states require it. What really got my attention was the lack of an organized internship requirement.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 6:32 pm

[quote="Hungry Ghost"][quote="scottae316"]It is obvious that some here have absolutely no idea of the use of the title "Doctor".[/quote]

HUNGRY GHOST: Hi Scottae. I hope that you weren't including me in that.

VINNY: Of course not Ghost :roll: :roll: ! You have only been attacking doctoral degrees from DETC schools such as the one from California Coast University as evidenced in your vehement protestations since 2008 (see thread relating to CCU Psychology program by Jimmy, 2008), prior to this school's developing a curriculum or hiring its faculty! So relax. We know your sentiments and they ain't pro-DETC as well as holding dsirust of the mental health profession based on previous statements you have made regarding professionals in this field.

[quote Scottae316]In a medical setting it is usually assumed by the patient that the person addressed as "Doctor" is a MD or DO. This is not true today, for example you have a pharmacist that as a Pharm.D who is now called "Doctor", also many physical therapist now have their doctorate and are referred to as such. This is neither unethical, immoral, or illegal, but the changing face of medicine.[/quote]

Hungry Ghost: I agree that there's nothing wrong with that. There are certainly doctoral programs in counseling and social work out there, and I have no objection at all to counselors and social workers with doctoral degrees in those subjects mentioning the degree in their advertising or to their being refered to as "doctor".

I'm a little more skeptical about counselors and social workers (or any professionals for that matter) with Ph.D's in totally unrelated subjects using the rather generic suffix in their advertising. (Most Ph.D's aren't in philosophy these days.) The problem there would be the implied suggestion that the doctorate is in their professional field and that they have more training in it than they really have. It might be more defensible if the doctorate is in a closely cognate subject. (Like lots of things, it's fuzzy in practice.)

VINNY: However, Psychology is not an UNRELATED SUBJECT to Counseling and is in a CLOSELY COGNATE SUBJECT AS CLEARLY :shock: :shock: indicated in the Codes of Ethics of the American Counseling as follows:

C.4 PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS

C.4.d IMPLYING DOCTORAL-LEVEL COMPETENCE

COUNSELORS CLEARLY STATE THEIR HIGHEST EARNED DEGREE IN COUNSELING OR CLOSELY RELATED FIELD. COUNSELORS DO NOT IMPLY DOCTORAL LEVEL COMPETENCE WHEN ONLY POSSESSING A MASTER'S DEGREE IN COUNSELING OR A RELATED FIELD BY REFERRING TO THEMSELVES AS "DR." IN A COUNSELING CONTEXT WHEN THEIR DOCTORATE IS NOT IN COUNSELING OR A RELATED FIELD (capitalizations are mine).

Hungry, can you see the above or do you require an interpretation? :mrgreen:

HG: But the biggest problems seem to arise with unlicensed individuals using specific professional degree titles associated with regulated professions.

VINNY: However, the Counselor/Social Worker is licensed (for the thousandth tome :shock: :shock: ) at the masters degree level!

[quote Scotae]The only "problem" is when it is a nurse who has the DNP (or even a Phd) where can lead to real confusion and at present most nurses with a DNP to not use the title "Doctor" with patients, but it is used with colleagues.[/quote]

HG: I think that the closest analogy to what's being proposed in this thread might be some paramedical professional earning a Doctor of Medicine degree somewhere, then advertising him or herself to prospective patients as an "M.D.", despite not having a license to practice medicine.

VINNY: Absolute hogwash!. There is no comparison whatsoever with your absurd analogy above and a licensed mental health professional at the masters degree level seeking and obtaining a legitimate doctorate in a related field from an accredited school. If you wish to be taken seriously than provide credible examples.

HG: My only objection in this and the Psy.D case would be to the unlicensed individual advertising the degree while trolling for clients. I don't have any objection at all to their earning the degree (I respect that), or to clients or colleagues calling them "doctor". That's usually the other person's decision anyway and what to call people is up to them. I'm not even all that opposed to these people signing themselves as "Dr." if they want to, as long as they leave off the misleading initials at the end. (I do think that referring to one's self as "doctor" is a little pompous, but not necessarily unethical.) Somebody with a doctorate in English literature can do the same thing, I guess, so it doesn't really communicate all that much.[/quote]


VINNY: You are engaging in double talk and obsessive ranting that is going absolutely nowhere. The bottomline is the legality and ethicality of a licensed mental health professional at the masters level obtaining and using the title Dr. in their professional practice within the state they wish to practice. IF their state board allows the use of the degree and the title doctor, and the licensed professional is not in violation of any state statutes, laws and rules of professional conduct they can legitimately use the title "Dr." .
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 6:50 pm

[quote="David"]I read the act but since my next day of law school will be my first I wonder if you could help me parse the language, Norm. Does this mean disclosing one has a doctorate that doesn't meet eligibility standards in the service of informed consent disclosure violates the title proscription?

FWIW in my estimation the requirements are modest. APA accreditation isn't required although few states require it. What really got my attention was the lack of an organized internship requirement.[/quote]

VINNY: Because it appears that you are referring to the state of Florida and its statute requirements for Psychologists in that state, although not stated, in fact APA accreditation is required. Therefore an internship is required as well.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby nosborne48 » Sat May 11, 2013 7:12 pm

Well, the issue can become awfully complex if you start thinking in terms of protected speech but just on its face Vinney, if he had a Psy.D. from ANY accredited school but lacked a license to practice psychology or school psychology, could call himself "doctor" in connection with rendering counseling services as a mental health counselor. But he could not say "doctor of what" in his advertisements, signs, business cards, etc. The terms "psychology" and "psychologist" are protected by Florida statute.

In the above paragraph, I added a bit of flexibility that might not be obvious from the statutes themselves in that I am not saying Vinney could not refer to his degree and use the title in non-mental health contexts but that opinion is based on a more detailed commercial speech analysis than I think I can perform here. You will learn all about it in your Con Rights class second year.

The thing I think most significant is that there is no exemption allowing the use of the protected terms if doing so is not misleading. The prohibition is total ( or at least as total as constitutional law will permit to be).
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 7:26 pm

[quote="nosborne48"]Well, the issue can become awfully complex if you start thinking in terms of protected speech but just on its face Vinney, if he had a Psy.D. from ANY accredited school but lacked a license to practice psychology or school psychology, could call himself "doctor" in connection with rendering counseling services as a mental health counselor. But he could not say "doctor of what" in his advertisements, signs, business cards, etc. The terms "psychology" and "psychologist" are protected by Florida statute.

In the above paragraph, I added a bit of flexibility that might not be obvious from the statutes themselves in that I am not saying Vinney could not refer to his degree and use the title in non-mental health contexts but that opinion is based on a more detailed commercial speech analysis than I think I can perform here. You will learn all about it in your Con Rights class second year.

The thing I think most significant is that there is no exemption allowing the use of the protected terms if doing so is not misleading. The prohibition is total ( or at least as total as constitutional law will permit to be).[/quote]


VINNY: Is the "protected term" to which you refer in the last paragraph Psychology/Psychologist or "Dr.", doctor?
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