CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and NYS

General discussions concerning institutions and degree programs.

Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby nosborne48 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:13 pm

The beauty of being a lawyer...there's only the one profession and not much argument about what we call ourselves. What OTHERS call us is another matter, of course.

But even with us, there was some history on point. Back in the '60s law schools were (stupidly) beginning to change their first professional degree title from LL.B. to J.D. Exact same degree in the American legal education and professional context but one was a sort-of second Bachelor's degree while the other was a "Doctorate".

The ABA ethics people issued an advisory opinion forbidding lawyers from using the title "Doctor" based upon the J.D. alone. The reasoning was that calling oneself "Doctor" implied superior educational qualifications over the LL.B. and that representation is false.

The rules have changed since then and there is no ABA prohibition against a J.D. using the title "Doctor". There might still be a few states that do prohibit it but it doesn't matter; Few if any lawyers could endure the abuse and derision that would be forthcoming from the rest of the Bar if they tried it.

College professors who teach law at the undergrad level are often called "Doctor" but law school professors aren't. Don't know why.

Personally, I still think "LL.B." simply reeks of good taste, good breeding, and long history but "J.D." feels like something only a poser would claim. It's an embarrassment. I have never used the post-nominal initials though I DO use "LL.M." in professional contexts.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:39 pm

Rich Douglas: Calling yourself "doctor" in a health care setting when you are not licensed at that level is unethical. This is so because one is telling a technical truth while simultaneously leaving an incorrect perception in someone's mind.

VINNY: Once again Douglas sticks his foot in his mouth by making grossly inaccurate statements thereby revealing his bias against CSU and related doctoral programs as well as attempting to demonstrate the superiority of his "Ivy League" doctorate and anachronistic doctoral dissertation by casting a negative light on DETC doctorates.

Let's stick to reality and substantive facts emanating from the American Counseling Association' Code of Ethics which states the folowing:

C.4 PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS

C.4.b CREDENTIALS
Counselors claim only licenses or certification that are current in good standing.

C.4.C EDUCATIONAL DEGREES
Counselors clearly differentiate between earned and honorary degrees.

C.4.d IMPLYING DOCTORAL-LEVEL COMPETENCE

COUNSELORS CLEARLY STATE THEIR HIGHEST EARNED DEGREE IN COUNSELING OR CLOSELY RELATED FIELD. COUNSELORS DO NOT IMPLY DOCTORAL LEVEL COMPETENCE WHEN ONLY POSSESSING A MASTER'S DEGREE IN COUNSELING OR A RELATED FIELD BY REFERRING TO THEMSELVES AS "DR." IN A COUNSELING CONTEXT WHEN THEIR DOCTORATE IS NOT IN COUNSELING OR A RELATED FIELD (capitalizations are mine).

c.4 COUNSELORS CLEARLY STATE THE ACCREDITION STATUS OF THEIR DEGREE PROGRAM AT THE TIME THE DEGREE WAS EARNED. http://www.counseling.org/Resources/aca ... ethics.pdf

In short, a licensed Masters level Counselor with an accredited doctoral degree either in Counseling or a related field (Psychology) can refer to themselves as a "DR" (doctor) in a counseling setting. END OF STORY DOUGIE!


DOUGLAS: This is a serious issue in health care currently as we see more and more professions considering licensing at the doctorate level. The two hoDOUGLAS:ttest ones right now are nurse practitioners and social workers. Unfortunately, in both cases, if people hear "doctor," they think they're dealing with a physician or psychologist, respectively. But it isn't true.

VINNY: We realize that you cannot accept the fact that you are once again wrong and got caught by speaking out of turn without understanding what you are talking about. What else is new? :roll: :wink:

DOUGLAS: "Vinny123" wants to skirt all of that by repeating the same old thing over and over again. But that just makes him wrong repeatedly. A counselor who is not a licensed psychologist, yet holds a doctorate (in any field) and holds him/herself out as "Dr. So-and-so" is being deceptive, despite the truth of the statement itself. This is true whether or not the degree is in psychology or economics. It is true whether or not the person graduated from, say, a Ph.D. or PsyD in psychology that was approved for licensure. If that person is not licensed at that level, he or she should not style themselves as "Doctor" in the professional setting.

VINNY: Sorry Douglas but you got tagged once again, whether it is about MIGS, NCU and now this current issue. The facts speak for themselves regardless of what "you" think.

DOUGLAS: I worked at a hospital once as its leadership trainer. We had a nurse on staff with a Ph.D. She did NOT use the title "doctor" (which, obviously, she had earned and held) in the workplace. If that has to be explained, well, d-uh. But she DID use "Ph.D." in her written materials for the classes she taught. Double d-uh.

VINNY: Your pathetic and desperate attempt to fallaciously prove your point by providing your anecdotal experience as noted above does not change the bottomline; YOU are INCORRECT!

DOUGLAS: Finally, let me risk a comment about style. "Vinny123" reminds me of General Custer, standing in the middle with threats all around, refusing to give an inch despite the obvious failure, and shooting at everyone in sight. No one, not me, not anyone, will change this pathological behavior, no matter how strong the argument. He will keep on fighting, changing the argument along the way if necessary. He will never acknowledge when someone has told him something he did not know. And he will not be civil. Ever. And he will insist on the last word, so I'm determined to let him have it.

VINNY: What is truly "pathological", using your term, is the lack of awareness on your part that the General Custer anaology you project on poor little Vinny actually depicts YOUR behavior and actions on this and many other subjects whereby in spite of your presenting inaccurate and misleading information, articles, perspectives and positions you continue to fight on due to your need to be perceived as the master of this forum. Sorry pal, we know differently. :wink:

BTW, Douglas I wasn't aware that your Name it and Frame it doctorate enables you to pathologize and diagnose individuals with whom you cannot debate with substantive facts! Of course you are an expert diagnostician as well (and I am the King of Siam). Hm, how long have you been feeling this way Douglas? :mrgreen:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Hungry Ghost » Fri May 10, 2013 4:03 pm

vinny123 wrote:Quite frankly it is evident that you are not a mental health professional or attorney and have no conception of the meaning of informed consent, its purpose, intent, strengths and limitations.


Ok, then maybe you can explain it to me.

On one hand, you seem to be exulting in the idea of a counselor or social worker who lacks a clinical psychology license using the title "Doctor of Psychology" in his/her advertising. Why? What benefits are associated with advertising the degree and the title?

On the other hand, every prospective client is required to be informed that the "PsyD" degree does not imply and the counselor or social worker does not possess any special expertise or competencies in psychology. Wouldn't that disclosure, assuming that it's clearly made and that prospective clients actually understand it, undercut and contradict whatever benefits are associated with advertising the degree?

It looks like a very confusing and contradictory message. The fact that this is being done intentionally is what makes me doubt its ethics.

Neither do you have the capacity to evaluate the credibility and content of the courses offered in the Psy.D program at such doctoral programs as CSU or any other school so engage in all the cerebral ruminations and ranting you wish but the bottomline is that your opinion is your opinion, nothing more than that.

VINNY: The ONLY unethical kind of advertising I perceive is YOUR continuous attempt to devalue and negate a legitimate, legal and credible degree that is accredited by a DETC school.


I didn't say anything about the credibility and content of the Cal Southern PsyD program. (It's still license-qualifying here in California I believe, for whatever that's worth.)

But in the very first post in this thread you wrote (the highlighting is by me):

"So a graduate of this program would have to be very careful and thoroughly convey to prospective clients, in writing and verbally, as part of an Informed Consent, that they are not Psychologists and that their doctorate does not imply they have the competencies of a Psychologist or are performing the functions of a Psychologist."

The mandatory "informed consent" process would seem to demand that the counselor or social worker do precisely what you've just accused me of doing. (It's hard to imagine a professional dismissing his/her own doctorate in real life, but that's what they are theoretically required to do.)
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby SteveFoerster » Fri May 10, 2013 5:31 pm

Rich Douglas wrote:Finally, let me risk a comment about style. "Vinny123" reminds me of General Custer, standing in the middle with threats all around, refusing to give an inch despite the obvious failure, and shooting at everyone in sight. No one, not me, not anyone, will change this pathological behavior, no matter how strong the argument. He will keep on fighting, changing the argument along the way if necessary. He will never acknowledge when someone has told him something he did not know. And he will not be civil. Ever. And he will insist on the last word, so I'm determined to let him have it.

That's why a while back I went into Control Panel and added him to my "foes" list. His posts don't even appear for me, so whenever he forgets his meds and starts posting here, I don't have to be inconvenienced by it. I do still see people's responses, but that's just enough to remind me what a great decision it was.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Rich Douglas » Fri May 10, 2013 8:00 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:That's why a while back I went into Control Panel and added him to my "foes" list. His posts don't even appear for me, so whenever he forgets his meds and starts posting here, I don't have to be inconvenienced by it. I do still see people's responses, but that's just enough to remind me what a great decision it was.


I've never done it, but this case comes close.

BTW, I've held the Ph.D. from Union for 10 years now. The only people who have EVER dissed it were those who did not hold earned doctorates from accredited schools. Ever. Of course, they are a small sliver of the posters who do not have earned doctorates, the vast majority of whom are terrific posters. But no one who has done it acts that way. People like that are a tiny, pathetic, angry bunch of emotional pygmies. Funny, really. :D
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby nosborne48 » Fri May 10, 2013 8:32 pm

That is one thing I wish Vinney would tell us; whether he has a doctorate and where it came from. The sense I get is that he doesn't but is tempted by the CSU Psy.D. program. I wouldn't discourage him from doing it, either, if (as always) that degree meets his current and anticipated future needs. But I'm guessing that it wouldn't. This is the second thread I've seen of his where he tries to justify using the Psy.D. without having a psychology license. I don't doubt that the various counselor licensing entities say what he says they say but the use of the terms "psychologist" and "psychology" are often restricted by statute to licensed psychologists.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Fri May 10, 2013 11:37 pm

Hungry Ghost: Ok, then maybe you can explain it to me.

On one hand, you seem to be exulting in the idea of a counselor or social worker who lacks a clinical psychology license using the title "[b]Doctor of Psychology"[/b] in his/her advertising. Why? What benefits are associated with advertising the degree and the title?

VINNY: HG you seem to be an intelligent guy so we have to ask ourselves why you are having so much difficulty comprehending that there are individuals at the masters level, for either personal attainment, professional growth or for enhancing their clinical skills, who wish to complete a Psy.D which is legal and ethical to use. There are no hidden agendas. It is as simple and straightforward as that.


HG: On the other hand, every prospective client is required to be informed that the "PsyD" degree does not imply and the counselor or social worker does not possess any special expertise or competencies in psychology. Wouldn't that disclosure, assuming that it's clearly made and that prospective clients actually understand it, undercut and contradict whatever benefits are associated with advertising the degree?

VINNY: NO! I believe that your difficulty in grasping this matter is related to your not being in this profession and/or your distrust and disdain towards DETC doctoral programs, resulting in your blocking an issue which is very clear to others in the field of mental health.

HG: It looks like a very confusing and contradictory message. The fact that this is being done intentionally is what makes me doubt its ethics.

VINNY: As clearly documented and substantiated by such irrefutable references as the Statutes of Florida, Codes of ethics of the American Counseling Association as well as the feedback from the Florida and NYS Boards of Counseling and Social Work, YOUR doubts regarding the ethicality of using the doctorate are absolutely unfounded. So I suggest that you cease this obsessive rumination regarding this issue and if you can't ask your local bartender to assist you. :lol:

HG: I didn't say anything about the credibility and content of the Cal Southern PsyD program. (It's still license-qualifying here in California I believe, for whatever that's worth.)

But in the very first post in this thread you wrote (the highlighting is by me):

"So a graduate of this program would have to be very careful and thoroughly convey to prospective clients, in writing and verbally, as part of an Informed Consent, that they are not Psychologists [b][i]and that their doctorate does not imply they have the competencies of a Psychologist[/i][/b] or are performing the functions of a Psychologist."

The mandatory "informed consent" process would seem to demand that the counselor or social worker do precisely what you've just accused me of doing. (It's hard to imagine a professional dismissing his/her own doctorate in real life, but that's what they are theoretically required to do.)[/quote]


VINNY: HG, seek HELP elsewhere with this issue because you are beating a dead horse! This subject is closed, NOT based on my opinion but based on indisputable, substantive references that I provided which clearly support my assertions and points. END OF STORY! :wink:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Fri May 10, 2013 11:49 pm

[quote="SteveFoerster"][quote="Rich Douglas"]Finally, let me risk a comment about style. "Vinny123" reminds me of General Custer, standing in the middle with threats all around, refusing to give an inch despite the obvious failure, and shooting at everyone in sight. No one, not me, not anyone, will change this pathological behavior, no matter how strong the argument. He will keep on fighting, changing the argument along the way if necessary. He will never acknowledge when someone has told him something he did not know. And he will not be civil. Ever. And he will insist on the last word, so I'm determined to let him have it.[/quote]

FOERSTER: That's why a while back I went into Control Panel and added him to my "foes" list. His posts don't even appear for me, so whenever he forgets his meds and starts posting here, I don't have to be inconvenienced by it. I do still see people's responses, but that's just enough to remind me what a great decision it was.[/quote]

VINNY: Yoo hoo Foerster, I hate to disturb you but for someone on your "foes list", whose posts don't even appear for you, you are contradicting yourself and am obviously responding to my posts as evidenced by your antagonistic comments above. What this means is that you recognize that what I state bears merit and you don't like the fact that I am frequently accurate and correct and your hero Douglas is not. So I suggest that you speak to Douglas, whose doctorate allows him to diagnose and pathologize others (as he noted) and perhaps he can adjust your meds to assist you with your hypocrisy.

Btw Foerster, when was the last time that you have contributed anything to do the discussions other than your flaming comments?
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Fri May 10, 2013 11:59 pm

[quote="Rich Douglas"][quote="SteveFoerster"]
That's why a while back I went into Control Panel and added him to my "foes" list. His posts don't even appear for me, so whenever he forgets his meds and starts posting here, I don't have to be inconvenienced by it. I do still see people's responses, but that's just enough to remind me what a great decision it was.[/quote]

DOUGLAS:
I've never done it, but this case comes close.

BTW, I've held the Ph.D. from Union for 10 years now. The only people who have EVER dissed it were those who did not hold earned doctorates from accredited schools. Ever. Of course, they are a small sliver of the posters who do not have earned doctorates, the vast majority of whom are terrific posters. But no one who has done it acts that way. People like that are a tiny, pathetic, angry bunch of emotional pygmies. Funny, really. :D

VINNY: Enough with your BS in an attempt to throw off other posters from the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about regarding this subject BUT yet continued to press on without one iota of facts to support your contentions because you didn't wish to be perceived as a windbag. Sorry Dougie, you haven't succeeded and you haven't duped any posters on this board. At every turn and twist I parried your vacuous opinions and "authoritative" assertions, with substantive data that was irrefutable.There is a pattern in your mounting rambling and empty allegations and claims that are never supported by the facts and quite frankly this level of arrogance is a turn off.

So cease contemplating placing me on your "foes" list and disappear from my threads. It is as straightforward and simple as that and I look forward to it. :wink:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 12:25 am

[quote="nosborne48"]That is one thing I wish Vinney would tell us; whether he has a doctorate and where it came from.

VINNY: As an attorney you of all people should recognize that whether I possess a doctorate or not is a fallacious and inconsequential issue relative to the topic presented and the discussions that ensued.

NOSBORNE: The sense I get is that he doesn't but is tempted by the CSU Psy.D. program.

VINNY: In fact I am not but perceive this degree as potentially being useful to certain individuals at certain stages in their career. In addition I take issue with certain posters on this Forum whose actual motive in attacking the DETC doctorate is not based on the inferiority or lack of credibility of these degrees but on their sense that these doctorates pose a threat to the superiority of there degrees whether masters or doctorate.

NOSBORNE: I wouldn't discourage him from doing it, either, if (as always) that degree meets his current and anticipated future needs.

VINNY: Oh thank you Great One. :mrgreen:

NOSBORNE: But I'm guessing that it wouldn't.

VINNY: Uh oh, I take my thank you back! :mrgreen:

NOSBORNE: This is the second thread I've seen of his where he tries to justify using the Psy.D. without having a psychology license. I don't doubt that the various counselor licensing entities say what he says they say but the use of the terms "psychologist" and "psychology" are often restricted by statute to licensed psychologists.

IVINNY: Nosborne, you appear to be an armchair attorney. Instead of doing your homework and legwork, as I have clearly done, why don't you put this matter to rest for all of us by contacting the boards that I did (and others if you wish) and providing us with substantive supportive data and evidence from irrefutable references to corroborate your opinions and beliefs and to refute mine? At that point WE will all be able to review your substantive feedback and make a determination as to whether YOUR doubts have ANY credibility and validity. Keep in mind that I am not on trial and you are not the prosecutor BUT a participant of this forum. To merely go on ad infinitum regarding your doubts just does not do the trick. As evidenced by this and the previous thread regarding this subject, all you have offered is a continuous stream of doubts, nothing more, nothing less! So with all due respect either put up or cease and desist! Have some mercy. I am getting bored already. :roll:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Jimmy » Sat May 11, 2013 12:59 am

In Indiana one cannot professionally use "Psy.D." after his or her name unless one is a licensed psychologist. Nor can one call him/herself "Dr." in relation to that degree unless one is a licensed psychologist.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 1:18 am

[quote="Jimmy"]In Indiana one cannot professionally use "Psy.D." after his or her name unless one is a licensed psychologist. Nor can one call him/herself "Dr." in relation to that degree unless one is a licensed psychologist.[/quote]

Vinny: I have no doubt that there are states that may prohibit the use of the degree in question and specifically the title of "doctor" under circumstances noted above. That is why in this thread as well as a previous one relating to the same subject, I clearly noted that any individual who is interested in proceeding with this degree program should initially check its legality with the state board in which they wish to practice, prior to going forward. In fact, it is a priority that they do so.

However, we should also acknowledge the fact that in many states a Regionally Accredited Doctorate in Psychology, such as those offered by Walden and Capella, which is not approved by the APA would also not pass muster and would also not allow a graduate to sit for the Psychologist entrance exam and would prevent them from using their degree to refer themselves as "Dr." as well!
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Rich Douglas » Sat May 11, 2013 2:08 am

nosborne48 wrote:That is one thing I wish Vinney would tell us; whether he has a doctorate and where it came from. The sense I get is that he doesn't but is tempted by the CSU Psy.D. program. I wouldn't discourage him from doing it, either, if (as always) that degree meets his current and anticipated future needs. But I'm guessing that it wouldn't. This is the second thread I've seen of his where he tries to justify using the Psy.D. without having a psychology license. I don't doubt that the various counselor licensing entities say what he says they say but the use of the terms "psychologist" and "psychology" are often restricted by statute to licensed psychologists.


I would suggest that if "Vinny123" actually did that doctorate, he'd calm down a lot regarding the topic of earning one. But people like him don't actually do it. They just talk about it.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Sat May 11, 2013 2:24 am

[quote="Rich Douglas"][quote="nosborne48"]That is one thing I wish Vinney would tell us; whether he has a doctorate and where it came from. The sense I get is that he doesn't but is tempted by the CSU Psy.D. program. I wouldn't discourage him from doing it, either, if (as always) that degree meets his current and anticipated future needs. But I'm guessing that it wouldn't. This is the second thread I've seen of his where he tries to justify using the Psy.D. without having a psychology license. I don't doubt that the various counselor licensing entities say what he says they say but the use of the terms "psychologist" and "psychology" are often restricted by statute to licensed psychologists.[/quote]

I would suggest that if "Vinny123" actually did that doctorate, he'd calm down a lot regarding the topic of earning one. But people like him don't actually do it. They just talk about it.[/quote]

VINNY: Douglas the bottomline is that regardless of every effort on your part to attempt to show that you knew what you were talking about regarding the subject at hand and that I was incorrect, including presenting misinformation from outdated articles and substituting your opinion for substantive facts and engaging in other ploys to corroborate your disdain of DETC doctorates, including changing the focus on ME and my degrees as noted above, you were way off course and were blatantly wrong! Now get some sleep Dougie and carry out your promise tomorrow to put me on your "foes" list so that I won't have to deal with your antics any further. I look forward to being expunged from your "friendship" list. :roll:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby scottae316 » Sat May 11, 2013 2:30 am

It is obvious that some here have absolutely no idea of the use of the title "Doctor". In a medical setting it is usually assumed by the patient that the person addressed as "Doctor" is a MD or DO. This is not true today, for example you have a pharmacist that as a Pharm.D who is now called "Doctor", also many physical therapist now have their doctorate and are referred to as such. This is neither unethical, immoral, or illegal, but the changing face of medicine. The only "problem" is when it is a nurse who has the DNP (or even a Phd) where can lead to real confusion and at present most nurses with a DNP to not use the title "Doctor" with patients, but it is used with colleagues.
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