CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and NYS

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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Tark » Wed May 08, 2013 2:56 pm

Florida Statute 817.567 was in fact repealed in 2011.
So the exact interpretation doesn't matter any more.

The statute is still posted online, as per my previous link.
But that link represents the 2010 Florida statutes, which have since changed.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:21 pm

As an addendum to the above discussion, posters may wish to understand the basis for Medical doctors being so concerned, and rightly so, regarding medical practitioners in related professions, such as Nursing, Optometry and Clinical Psychologists, holding doctorates, not being confused with the scope of practice and medical services offered by licensed Physicians. For example, there is overlap between the services offered by Doctors of Optometry and Opthamologists. Although Doctors of Optometry do not attend or complete their training in medical school and are not Physicians they can diagnose ocular conditions and can treat (ie, prescribe medications, etc) certain opthalmic/ocular diseases with limitations (ie, they cannot perform invasive surgeries). HOWEVER, in many states Optometrists are fighting turf wars with Physicians claiming that with additional coursework in treatment of ocular diseases they too can perform surgeries (ie, cataract surgery) which are currently in the domain of licensed Opthamologists. In turn, Opthamologists, and I believe rightly so, contend that Optometrists are not medically trained and do not possess the skill sets or competencies that are on par with medically trained Physicians to provide patients with an excellent standard of care. Furthermore, many patients do not know the difference between Optometrists and opthamologists, which can result in a major mishap if a patient with a significant ocular disorder does not seek out the appropriate practitioner to treat, manage and monitor their medical condition.

Nursing is another example of this turf war whereby Nurse Practitionners (as well as Nurses in other subspeciality areas such as Nurse Anaesthesiology)at the Masters or doctoral level contend that they can diagnose and treat a number of medical conditions and in fact are setting up private practices throughout the US which is in direct conflict with Licensed Physicians' perception of Nursing as being subordinate to their profession in terms of skill sets and competencies. Clinical Psychology is another area of contention for Psychiatrists, especially when there was a move by certain Clinical Psychologists at the doctoral level who were obtaining Masters degrees in Psychopahrmacology or in Nursing in order to be able to prescribe psychotropic medication to patients, therby enhancing their professional status as well as their incomes. Once again, the medical establishment vehemently contested this situation vehemently noting that due to a lack of medical education, Clinical Psychologists are inadequately trained to administer Psychotropic medications, to monitor and manage adverse reactions to these medications, to differentiate Psychiatric symptoms from actual physical medical conditions or to treat comorbid medical conditions (ie, cardiac and cancer in addition to a psychiatric condition).

HOWEVER, none of these contentious areas have anything to do with Licensed Counselors/Social Workers who wish to obtain a legitimate doctorate from a DETC school leading to their referring to themselves as "doctor" with the explicit and accurate representation of the services and scope of services they offer as well as the limitations of their practice.
Last edited by vinny123 on Wed May 08, 2013 3:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:27 pm

[quote="Tark"]Florida Statute 817.567 was in fact [url=http://flrules.eregulations.us/register/notice/11/20/2012/12298744]repealed[/url] in 2011.
So the exact interpretation doesn't matter any more.

The statute is still posted online, as per my previous link.
But that link represents the 2010 Florida statutes, which have since changed.[/quote]

VINNY: The basic tenets of that statute are intact, with modifications as noted in my most recent post to Nosborne. The bottomline is that the Florida Board of Mental Health Counseling/Social Work and Marriage and Family Therapy directed ME to this statute two days ago and they continue to abide by this statute! If you have any doubts I suggest that you do your homework and contact the board directly and let us know what you are told. Looking forward to hearing the results of your discussion.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Hungry Ghost » Wed May 08, 2013 3:29 pm

vinny123 wrote:Based on discussions with the Boards of Social Work and Mental Health Counseling of Florida and New York, the Psy.D from California Southern University enables graduates to use the title "doctor" legally as long as there is no misrepresentation to the public, intentional or inadvertent, that the holder of this degree is a Psychologist.


In most places it's legal for people without a doctoral degree to call themselves "doctor" if they want to. That would be a false boast certainly, but lying isn't illegal in most cases. (Lying only becomes illegal when people suffer damages as a result of reliance on the lies. That's fraud.)

What's typically being regulated is use of the "doctor" title with regard to regulated professions. In these instances, the concern is with people representing themselves to clients as having special professional training in areas that they haven't been licensed to practice.

So a graduate of this program would need to very carefully and thoroughly convey to prospective clients, in writing and verbally, as part of an Informed Consent, that they are not Psychologists and that their doctorate does not imply they have the competencies of a Psychologist or are performing the functions of a Psychologist.


That would contradict the whole purpose of using the PsyD degree in advertising, wouldn't it?

Nonetheless, for individuals who are already licensed at the Masters degree level, the Psy.D program would enable them to legally use the title "Doctor" in these two states.


The problem there is the mixed message.

On one hand, the social worker or counselor would be selling him/herself to clients as a "doctor of psychology". That would presumably attract additional clients on their practice on the assumption that this particular professional is especially qualified in psychology. That's the basic purpose and premise of the advertisement. But on the other hand, that social worker or counselor would theoretically be making it clear to all of those prospective clients that no special psychological expertise or competency is being implied and no clinical psychology services will be provided.

That's skating very close to the ethical edge in my opinion. The difference between advertising one's self as a "Doctor of Psychology" and claiming that one possesses the psychological expertise that's normally associated with the degree title is an awfully subtle distinction. It's one that laypeople (especially those who are suffering psychological distress) are unlikely to able to clearly make.

But however unethical this kind of advertising might be, it probably is technically legal, as long as clients can be induced to sign the "informed" consent form.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:54 pm

Hungry Ghost: That's skating very close to the ethical edge in my opinion. The difference between advertising one's self as a "Doctor of Psychology" and claiming that one possesses the psychological expertise that's normally associated with the degree title is an awfully subtle distinction. It's one that laypeople (especially those who are suffering psychological distress) are unlikely to able to clearly make.

VINNY: Yes, Hungry Ghost in YOUR "opinion" but not in the opinion of Boards of Counseling/Social Work, the opinions that ethical Counselors and Social Workers abide by in a desire to provide quality and ethical services to their clients within their scope of services. Quite frankly it is evident that you are not a mental health professional or attorney and have no conception of the meaning of informed consent, its purpose, intent, strengths and limitations. Neither do you have the capacity to evaluate the credibility and content of the courses offered in the Psy.D program at such doctoral programs as CSU or any other school. so engage in all the cerebral ruminations and ranting you wish but the bottomline is that your opinion is your opinion, nothing more than that.

Hungry Ghost: But however unethical this kind of advertising might be, it probably is technically legal, as long as clients can be induced to sign the "informed" consent form.[/quote]

VINNY: The ONLY unethical kind of advertising I perceive is YOUR continuous attempt to devalue and negate a legitimate, legal and credible degree that is accredited by a DETC school. And that my friend is what is truly obvious by your spurious projections of lack of ethics on the part of ethical Counselors/Social Workers who are attempting to attain legal degrees and to represent these credentials to the public with ethical intent.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Rich Douglas » Wed May 08, 2013 5:11 pm

Typical "vinny123" behavior. He's wrong, so he attacks others.

I don't understand the joy he receives from such childish behavior. But then, as he likes to point out, I just have a Ph.D. from Union. I couldn't possibly be bright enough to understand the depths of someone like him.

Sadly, it is this boorish behavior that buries whatever point he was trying to make.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby nosborne48 » Wed May 08, 2013 7:29 pm

Yes, by heaven, that's right! DETC is allowed to accredit first "professional" degrees as well as "professional" dissertation doctorates. Yes, that does make it clear, Vinney, thank you.
Una cosa mala nunca muere.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Rich Douglas » Wed May 08, 2013 9:16 pm

BTW, national accrediting agencies that accredit particular types of programs (like the ABA, APA, and AMA) are also referred to as "professional" accrediting agencies.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Wed May 08, 2013 9:43 pm

DOUGLAS: Typical "vinny123" behavior. He's wrong, so he attacks others.

VINNY: MIGS, NCU and now this current topic and I am wrong? OBviously, It's just the opposite, I was right and you were grossly wrong! Even when you are obviously wrong you continue to hold yourself as being right. I am beginning to feel sorry for you.

BTW, no one is attacking you BUT merely pointing out that you come across as if you are an expert regarding just about every subject and topic being discussed and fall back on the fact that you hold a doctorate when in fact many of your statements and assertions prove to be blatantly incorrect, as is the current one.

DOUGLAS: I don't understand the joy he receives from such childish behavior. But then, as he likes to point out, I just have a Ph.D. from Union. I couldn't possibly be bright enough to understand the depths of someone like him.

VINNY: My friend Forget about possibly being bright enought to understand the depths of me when it appears you do not understand yourself! :cry:

DOUGLAS: Sadly, it is this boorish behavior that buries whatever point he was trying to make.

VINNY: Sorry to disappoint you pal, but my points were very clearly and cogently presented and supported as well as being very accurate. On the other hand, you did not know what you were talking about regarding this subject and now are attempting to deflect this fact by projecting your boorish behavior (ie, holding yourself out as an authority on just about every subject imaginable when obviously you are not; making empty authorative statements and assertions that are grossly inaccurate, etc, etc, etc) onto Vinny. How pathetic. :roll:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Wed May 08, 2013 9:48 pm

[quote="nosborne48"]Yes, by heaven, that's right! DETC is allowed to accredit first "professional" degrees as well as "professional" dissertation doctorates. Yes, that does make it clear, Vinney, thank you.[/quote]


Thank you Lord, thank you. Nosborne finally got it! :lol: Regards, Vinny
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby David » Fri May 10, 2013 12:16 am

I repeat (for the third time):

I expect there may be an informed consent disclosure requirement if you elect to use the title in a professional situation. The literature I read says that informed consent is the legal doctrine through which health care is provided in the US. Think about the effect its likely to have when you reveal to the prospective client “I ask you to call me doctor based upon a degree I earned over the internet from an unapproved psychology program. This degree neither equips me to obtain licensure nor practice as a psychologist in this state. I will treat you through the endorsement granted by my professional counselor's license based upon my masters degree in counseling not my unapproved doctorate in psychology.” Informed consent requires that the client/patient understands and appreciates relevant information so after revealing this confusing mouthful there is an ethical requirement to ensure the individual grasps what it all means. This may take some time to explain and at best the consumer is likely to be confused and at worst image the extended thumb and forefinger gesture, think 'this bozo's a loser,' and double time it out the door.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Fri May 10, 2013 2:43 am

[quote="David"]I repeat (for the third time):

DAVID: I expect there may be an informed consent disclosure requirement if you elect to use the title in a professional situation.

VINNY: Obviously.

DAVID:The literature I read says that informed consent is the legal doctrine through which health care is provided in the US.

VINNY: Yes.

DAVID: Think about the effect its likely to have when you reveal to the prospective client “I ask you to call me doctor based upon a degree I earned over the internet from an unapproved psychology program. This degree neither equips me to obtain licensure nor practice as a psychologist in this state. I will treat you through the endorsement granted by my professional counselor's license based upon my masters degree in counseling not my unapproved doctorate in psychology.”

VINNY: NO professional would attempt to present their professional academic/license/training/experience in one sweeping statement, especially in the caricatured and grotesquely negative manner noted above. The example of an "informed consent" noted by the poster above is presented from a biased perspective by an individual who is a Licensed Psychologist who apparently perceives ANY doctoral degrees, online or brick and mortar, from non APA approved doctoral programs in Psychology as being bogus. This means online Regional Accredited doctorates in Psychology from schools such as Capella and Walden would also not meet this poster's standards of approval either.

DAVID: Informed consent requires that the client/patient understands and appreciates relevant information so after revealing this confusing mouthful there is an ethical requirement to ensure the individual grasps what it all means. This may take some time to explain and at best the consumer is likely to be confused and at worst image the extended thumb and forefinger gesture, think 'this bozo's a loser,' and double time it out the door.[/quote]

VINNY: YOU are talking about what YOU would do based on an "Informed Consent" that is congruent with your negative perceptions of doctorates from schools such as CSU but this by no means is a valid or credible portrayal of how the vast majority of clients would react to a more realistic and ethically appropriate presentation of an Informed Consent, as the following hypothetical example reveals:

" I am a Clinical Social Worker/ Clinical Mental Health Counselor who is licensed to engage in the practice of this profession on the Masters Degree Level in the state of __________. I also possess a doctorate in Psychology but am not a licensed Psychologist, do not practice this profession and do not provide the professional services offered by a Licensed Psychologist but solely practice within the scope of my profession as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker/Mental Health Counselor. Although there is overlap between the clinical services of a Psychologist and Social Worker/Mental Health Counseling there are distinctions as follows:______________________________________. The professional Services I offer in my practice include_______________________________. Etc, etc, etc, etc."
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Gus Sainz » Fri May 10, 2013 7:06 am

vinny123 wrote:Based on discussions with the Boards of Social Work and Mental Health Counseling of Florida and New York, the Psy.D from California Southern University enables graduates to use the title "doctor" legally as long as there is no misrepresentation to the public, intentional or inadvertent, that the holder of this degree is a Psychologist. So a graduate of this program would need to very carefully and thoroughly convey to prospective clients, in writing and verbally, as part of an Informed Consent, that they are not Psychologists and that their doctorate does not imply they have the competencies of a Psychologist or are performing the functions of a Psychologist.

Nonetheless, for individuals who are already licensed at the Masters degree level, the Psy.D program would enable them to legally use the title "Doctor" in these two states.




Dr. Boombatz: Hello, please have a seat. I’m Dr. Boombatz and I will be taking care of you today.

Patient/Client: Doctor? I didn’t know I needed a doctor. Why do I need a doctor? What kind of doctor are you anyways?

Dr. Boombatz: I have a doctorate in (mumbles) from California Southern University.

Patient/Client: A doctorate in WHAT?

Dr. Boombatz: I can’t really tell you, but trust me; I am a doctor. Just call me DOCTOR.

Patient/Client: Is this your business card? It says Psy.D after your name. Isn’t that a doctorate in Psychology? Isn’t that your diploma on the wall? It says
you are a Doctor of Psychology. So you are a Psychologist, then.

Dr. Boombatz: Well, yes... but NO! It’s complicated. I can see you are confused. I need to make it clear that I do not have the competencies of a Psychologist nor am I performing the functions of a Psychologist.

Patient/Client: So you want me to call you doctor because you have a doctorate in Psychology, but you do not have the competencies of a Psychologist?

Dr. Boombatz: Exactly!

Patient/Client: So you are an incompentent Psychologist then?

Dr. Boombatz: (sigh) Tell you what, let’s forget the whole DOCTOR thing. Just call me Vinnie.


:mrgreen:
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby vinny123 » Fri May 10, 2013 1:12 pm

Gus Sainz:

[b]Dr. Boombatz:[/b] Hello, please have a seat. I’m Dr. Boombatz and I will be taking care of you today.

[b]Patient/Client:[/b] Doctor? I didn’t know I needed a doctor. Why do I need a doctor? What kind of doctor are you anyways?

[b]Dr. Boombatz:[/b] I have a doctorate in ([i]mumbles[/i]) from California Southern University.

[b]Patient/Client:[/b] A doctorate in WHAT?

[b]Dr. Boombatz: [/b]I can’t really tell you, but trust me; I am a doctor. Just call me DOCTOR.

[b]Patient/Client:[/b] Is this your business card? It says Psy.D after your name. Isn’t that a doctorate in Psychology? Isn’t that your diploma on the wall? It says
you are a Doctor of Psychology. So you are a Psychologist, then.

[b]Dr. Boombatz: [/b]Well, yes... but NO! It’s complicated. I can see you are confused. I need to make it clear that I do not have the competencies of a Psychologist nor am I performing the functions of a Psychologist.

[b]Patient/Client:[/b] So you want me to call you doctor because you have a doctorate in Psychology, but you do not have the competencies of a Psychologist?

[b]Dr. Boombatz:[/b] Exactly!

[b]Patient/Client:[/b] So you are an incompentent Psychologist then?

[b]Dr. Boombatz:[/b] (sigh) Tell you what, let’s forget the whole DOCTOR thing. Just call me [i]Vinnie[/i]:

:mrgreen:[/quote]



Very funny Gus :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

However, in the setting of working with clients, let's say within the context of a private practice, the scenario above fortunately does not play out the way you satirically depict. Primarily, the practitioner with this doctorate is not engaging in any illegal, shameful, deceptive or unethical conduct or is not violating any statutes or laws and in fact is complying with these regulations! What he/she is doing is presenting him/herself in an ethical and open manner with the intent of informing his/her client of the facts to enable the client to make an informed decision, which is in their best interests, as to whether the clinician in question is the "right" person for assisting them with their presenting issues. Secondly, but equally important, is that the majority of clients do not initiate or remain in a professional relationship with a licensed practitioner, either on the Masters or Doctoral level, based on the nature or level of their degree(s), or whether the clinician is called by their first name, Mr. or Ms. or doctor BUT on whether they CLICK! In short, the critical issue is whether there is a rapport, a feeling on the part of the client that the practitioner is attuned to their presenting problem that brought them to the clinician in the first place and whether a therapeutic,empathic, collaborative relationship/alliance is established between both parties. IF NOT, regardless of whether the clinician possesses an APA doctorate from the most prestigious university, the client will either not initiate or will terminate the relationship expeditiously.

What is also clearly omitted from the presentation of the "bozo" clinician with "evil" intent is the fact that many practititoners at the Masters Degree Level are seeking a doctorate, such as the one at CSU, because they are older (mid fourties to sixties), are juggling a job, family, children and financial issues that do not allow them the luxury to attend a four-five year doctoral problem costing upwards of $123,000 (that is the cost of a doctorate in Clinical Psychology at Alliant University). In fact some of these "bozos" wish to obtain the doctorate from a school such as CSU for personal attainment or to enhance and expand their professional clinical skills and competency so to provide their clients with a higher standard of quality of care. And for those who are not aware, there are a number of licensed clinicians at the Masters level who are NOT providing clinical treatment of clients BUT focus on career development, advocacy, organizational and human resources as well as administrative and managerial functions.

The bottomline is that a degree from an accredited school such as CSU, which is also in the process of expanding its accreditation status by seeking regional accredition, in the same way that the Graduate School of America, NCU and Walden evolved, is a valid, credible, LEGAL and useful degree program (that allows them to practice as a Clinical Psychologist at the doctoral level in California) and NO clinician who seeks such a degree needs to feel that they are being deceptive, unethical or behaving like a "bozo" for attempting to improve themselves and the lives of their clients.
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Re: CSU Psy.D is acceptable for title, "doc", in Florida and

Postby Rich Douglas » Fri May 10, 2013 2:31 pm

Calling yourself "doctor" in a health care setting when you are not licensed at that level is unethical. This is so because one is telling a technical truth while simultaneously leaving an incorrect perception in someone's mind.

This is a serious issue in health care currently as we see more and more professions considering licensing at the doctorate level. The two hottest ones right now are nurse practitioners and social workers. Unfortunately, in both cases, if people hear "doctor," they think they're dealing with a physician or psychologist, respectively. But it isn't true.

"Vinny123" wants to skirt all of that by repeating the same old thing over and over again. But that just makes him wrong repeatedly. A counselor who is not a licensed psychologist, yet holds a doctorate (in any field) and holds him/herself out as "Dr. So-and-so" is being deceptive, despite the truth of the statement itself. This is true whether or not the degree is in psychology or economics. It is true whether or not the person graduated from, say, a Ph.D. or PsyD in psychology that was approved for licensure. If that person is not licensed at that level, he or she should not style themselves as "Doctor" in the professional setting.

I worked at a hospital once as its leadership trainer. We had a nurse on staff with a Ph.D. She did NOT use the title "doctor" (which, obviously, she had earned and held) in the workplace. If that has to be explained, well, d-uh. But she DID use "Ph.D." in her written materials for the classes she taught. Double d-uh.

Finally, let me risk a comment about style. "Vinny123" reminds me of General Custer, standing in the middle with threats all around, refusing to give an inch despite the obvious failure, and shooting at everyone in sight. No one, not me, not anyone, will change this pathological behavior, no matter how strong the argument. He will keep on fighting, changing the argument along the way if necessary. He will never acknowledge when someone has told him something he did not know. And he will not be civil. Ever. And he will insist on the last word, so I'm determined to let him have it.

(Damn, I forgot to invoke my "Union Ph.D. trumps all arguments" clause "Vinny123" likes to trot out. Sorry, maybe next time.)
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