Ryokan College or SCUPS?

General discussions concerning institutions and degree programs.

Re: Nomenclature

Postby David » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:26 pm

Seriously, I thought that psychology licensure was sort of like lawyer licensure...some states require APA degree, some do not. Is this not the case?


I've been licensed in four states none of which required an APA approved degree.

FWIW, I've had interns who were in their 50s so don't let being "older" per se dissuade you, Vinny, from pursuing your goal.
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Re: Nomenclature

Postby Bill Huffman » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:08 am

nosborne48 wrote:Ummm..."snarky"?

Is that a technical term? :D


That's actually my middle name, John Snarky Doe.
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Postby FWD » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:26 am

Ryokan College, a California state approved school, has a two year online program that prepares one for the California Licensure exam in Psychology. As many of you guys know, students from this school have a very high pass rate on this exam. In fact, it is higher than many students from RA doctoral Psychology programs! This is not a cheap program, approximately $32,000, a price I feel is astronomical considering the fact that it cannot be applied for licensure in the majority of other states.

Now SCUPS may not have the reputation of Ryokan and has been the subject of many controversies on other distance learning chat forums. However, their Psychology doctoral program also prepares one for California Licensure and is a fraction of the cost of the schools listed above (approximately $10,000). Unfortunately, there does not appear to be the number of students who completed this program and/or passed the state licensing exam.


Hi Vinny,

It seems you've answered your own question.
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Postby John Bear » Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:07 am

Bill: Snarky? Is that a technical term?

John: It's all made crystal clear right here: http://www.snarky.com/
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Postby Fortiterinre » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:38 pm

Vinny, you definitely sound like you have done your homework. I don't doubt that the unaccredited PsyD schools will upgrade to RA/DETC/et al eventually or go out of existence, but what I was referring to is the possibility that the state legislature will simply change the legislation to remove the possibility of even California licensure for these schools. In Illinois one of the smaller STATE universities failed to obtain CSWE accreditation for their MSW progam and the legislature refused to allow the graduates to be licensed--compromise legislation eventually passed to allow one year's graduating class to be licensed, but the school's name is like a scarlet letter now.

I don't think psychologist licensure is anything near as reciprocal as attorney licensure. If you Google psych board of examiner meeting minutes from different states, you will see that different boards in different states refused licensure for newly resident psychologists for everything ranging from graduating from a non-APA doctoral program, completing a non-APA internship, and even objecting to the supervision of the internship. Each Board of Examiners seems to be like a panel of judges who can rely on their own discretion; they don't seem to have to enforce clear rules. The psychologist who has a job waiting in one state is in a real bind if licensure doesn't come through.

Board of Examiners also can go the other way--Illinois regularly licenses professional counselors who graduate from 30 credit M.A. psychology programs even though the law expressly says the program has to be at least 45 credits. Why the law is not enforced, I don't know.

Ryokan sounds like a fascinating program to me, because it greatly reduces the difficulties mental health professionals face in transitioning to actual clinical psychologists, at least in one state. Mental health professionals are so credential-conscious that multiple credentials that vary state-by-state can't be a BAD thing. You could be a Clinical Psychologist in California, a Clinical Social Worker in Oregon, a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in both states. I would just be really careful not to exceed scope-of-practice in the wrong state.
Steve
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MA, public policy administration, Northwestern University
(in progress) Ph.D./A.M., social service administration, University of Chicago
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Re: Nomenclature

Postby Dave Wagner » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:24 am

David wrote:Seriously, I thought that psychology licensure was sort of like lawyer licensure...some states require APA degree, some do not. Is this not the case?


I've been licensed in four states none of which required an APA approved degree.

FWIW, I've had interns who were in their 50s so don't let being "older" per se dissuade you, Vinny, from pursuing your goal.


David,

Since you've been the RA, APA Psychology route, could you comment on the cost of obtaining a license through that route? That would be helpful. The last time I looked, the licensing route through SCUPS was about 1/5 or 1/6 of an RA school. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Dave
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Re: Nomenclature

Postby David » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:18 pm

David,

Since you've been the RA, APA Psychology route, could you comment on the cost of obtaining a license through that route? That would be helpful. The last time I looked, the licensing route through SCUPS was about 1/5 or 1/6 of an RA school. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Dave[/quote]

Can do, Dave, although I’m afraid all I can provide is historical context since I trained 30-years ago. The web pages I reference may appear dated but the information is still applicable.


I borrowed $1,500 while I was in graduate school (MSW, RA PhD in counselor education, APA approved PhD in counseling psychology and APA approved VA internship) which I promptly plunked down on a couple of staples for a 20-something in the 70s: a stereo and a motorcycle. A bit of context should help explain the double doc. By the mid-70s psychology had achieved licensure in most states and was well on its way to winning vendorship. Vendorship is acceptance by third party payers and in pre-HMO days this was like a license to print money. Credentialing tightened once dollars attached; counseling programs retooled into counseling psychology and sought APA endorsement. Previously, counselor ed grads were eligible for psychology licensure and accepted as psychologists by organizations like the Federal Prisons, VA and the military. The current standard is APA approved degree and internship. I just happened to select like the one program that refused to transition enrolled students into its retooled counseling psychology curriculum. I couldn’t abide second class status so I pressed on and, in effect, transferred into an APA approved program at another university. The outcome was worth every bit of the additional effort.

I was supported by teaching, research and service assistantships so what little I borrowed went for fun and not survival. It was genteel poverty but I finished with very little debt. There was so much support available when I started the MSW that the only people who didn’t get money were those who declined the very modest demands. All I had to do one quarter was lock up a building at 11PM Monday through Friday. One year I had an assistantship through the phys ed department that was a lot of fun.

Interns I train report a huge difference in the debt load acquired between university-based and free-standing school students. By and large university based programs admit few students and provide support via assistantships and tuition waiver. Free-standing programs admit large classes with much higher tuition and little in the way of support other than loans. This is admittedly a very rough guesstimate: university-based interns report <50K in debt while free-standing students could buy a decent home in some parts of the country with the debt they incur.

The pre-doctoral internship takes a year and generally requires relocating with all the expenses that attach to making a move. I think most sites pay around 20K but there’s a gotcha: demand exceeds supply. I heard through the grapevine 300 failed to match this year. This adds the cost of sitting out a year although some secure an internship by negotiating an unfunded slot. Think you’re finished once you complete the internship? Nope. Most states require a year of post doctoral supervision and the gotcha here is it’s difficult to secure employment if you haven’t a license to practice.

As difficult as it can be for graduates of orthodox programs I can only imagine it’s that much more difficult for graduates of programs that have neither APA-approved nor RA status.

I encourage aspiring psychologists to review the following:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb99/debt.html

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb99/sp.html
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Postby Fortiterinre » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:45 pm

David,

Thank you for posting such a great response and links. 300 people not getting pre-doctoral internships is scary. I had heard that securing the post-doctoral internship was hard if you didn't already know someone willing to take you on, but I had always assumed the school would ultimately find you a pre-doc. A graduate of a non-APA program would then have to find both a pre-doc with tough competition as well as a post-doc.
Steve
BA, psychology, St. Mary's College of Minnesota
MA, public policy administration, Northwestern University
(in progress) Ph.D./A.M., social service administration, University of Chicago
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Postby David » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:24 pm

Fortiterinre wrote:David,

Thank you for posting such a great response and links. 300 people not getting pre-doctoral internships is scary. I had heard that securing the post-doctoral internship was hard if you didn't already know someone willing to take you on, but I had always assumed the school would ultimately find you a pre-doc. A graduate of a non-APA program would then have to find both a pre-doc with tough competition as well as a post-doc.


I'm glad the post was informative. Securing the internship is the student's responsibility; other than supplying references the school has nothing to do with the process. There is a provision for a 'captive internship' where the program develops its own clinic but I don't know of any schools that currently have this arrangement. I should add that the information in my post addresses formal internships via APPIC (http://www.appic.org). I think some states, like California, permit supervised experience where the person more or less becomes an apprentice to a practicing psychologist in lieu of the formal internship. I'm thankful I had the opportunity to do the formal internship; I suspect I learned much more (different rotations, integrated training, seminars, contacts with other disciplines, support of my fellow interns, etc) than would be the case in the cobbled together alternative.
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Re: Nomenclature

Postby Dave Wagner » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:38 am

David wrote:I encourage aspiring psychologists to review the following:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb99/debt.html

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb99/sp.html


Thanks for the information and the links.
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Re: Nomenclature

Postby Jack » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:34 pm

nosborne - Ummm..."snarky"?

Jack - It's a Lewis Carroll thing (The Hunting of the Snark)
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/pu ... rSnar.html
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Postby searchrescuegirl » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:48 pm

Hi all-

I am currently attending Ryokan and I am enjoying it as much as one can enjoy hard work and a dissertation. I plan on completeing the PsyD. degree (December of 2007), getting licensed and then hopefully go on into the residency post dotorate certified program at Fielding. All in all Ryokna is a great choice if you need to get an education vis the internet. It is advanced and very professional. Just fyi! :)
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Postby vinny123 » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:53 am

[quote="searchrescuegirl"]Hi all-

I am currently attending Ryokan and I am enjoying it as much as one can enjoy hard work and a dissertation. I plan on completeing the PsyD. degree (December of 2007), getting licensed and then hopefully go on into the residency post dotorate certified program at Fielding. All in all Ryokna is a great choice if you need to get an education vis the internet. It is advanced and very professional. Just fyi! :)[/quote]

Do you live in california or another state? What residency post doctorate certified prorgam are you contemplating entering at fielding?
Vinny
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Ryokan

Postby searchrescuegirl » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:09 am

I am in CA. and I plan on becoming a board certified neuropsychologist. Fielding has a certificated 2 year program for that, that I am so thrilled about. They help you obtain a residency and off you go. I do like Ryokan and they have an excellent pass rate for the psycholgy boards exam. Good luck on your decision!
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Ryokan

Postby searchrescuegirl » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:09 am

I am in CA. and I plan on becoming a board certified neuropsychologist. Fielding has a certificated 2 year program for that, that I am so thrilled about. They help you obtain a residency and off you go. I do like Ryokan and they have an excellent pass rate for the psycholgy boards exam. Good luck on your decision!
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