For Profit Universities

[Jack]

From the NY Times:

"The Obama administration on Thursday released its controversial proposed regulations to end federal student aid to for-profit colleges whose graduates do not earn enough to repay their loans. " http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/educa ... =education

[Isadore Weisberg]

This is a nice start to both protecting the student-consumer and hitting the worst of the for-profits right where they will feel it the most - the bottom line. The goniffs running the for-profits have been charging top dollar, exploiting adjunct faculty and shortchanging their students for far too long. I believe that this is a long overdue change of direction on the part of the federal government.

[Rich Douglas]

I've worked for a for-profit school, but I've never attended one. My observations:

There seems to be a lumping together of for-profit trade schools and for-profit universities. I believe these to be different populations.

Soooo many trade schools operate solely to collect Pell Grants from poor students, give them the least expensive (and useless) training possible, and let them fend for themselves regarding employment. This is the problem the government is trying to address. Still....

For-profit universities also benefit greatly from the government's financial aid programs. Because they're open admission, they tend to admit a lot of students who will not finish. I've witnessed this first-hand. However, it should be noted that those who do get an education worthy of the degree awarded. It's really Darwinian. I'd be fine with it if the taxpayers weren't subsidizing it. But the taxpayers are underwriting a lot (a lot!) of failure.

Finally, do you know what the break-even point is for a school like UoP? That is, how many classes must a student take for the school to cover its fixed costs plus the variable costs incurred to that point? Three. That's it. Three. Classes taken after that point--minus the variable costs for the classes, represent profit to the university. Again, they have a lot of starts, but not so many finishes.

I'd like to see some more accountability placed on the for-profit universities to admit only students with a good chance of finishing. Perhaps where the university pays the government back for loans and grants given to students who fail--paid back on a sliding scale. As for the trade schools, they should be on the hook regarding the employability of their graduates. After all, that's what they're really selling--jobs.

[Michael Dell]

Soooo many trade schools operate solely to collect Pell Grants from poor students, give them the least expensive (and useless) training possible, and let them fend for themselves regarding employment. This is the problem the government is trying to address. Still....

After all, that's what they're really selling--jobs.

I disagree. The college is selling an education. Employability is up to the student.

It is neither the college's responsibility to find jobs for their students after graduation, be cheap, be quick, or to lower its standards to prevent drop-outs.

If a student feels that the standards are too demanding they are free to drop out in shame. No college is obligated to lower its standards for them.

I'd like to see some more accountability placed on the for-profit universities to admit only students with a good chance of finishing. Perhaps where the university pays the government back for loans and grants given to students who fail--paid back on a sliding scale.

The loan is between the student and the government, not the school and the government.

[Rich Douglas]

I disagree. The college is selling an education. Employability is up to the student.

Take a look at these schools' ads. They don't talk about curricular content or the quality of the educative experience. They talk about jobs. You can disagree all you want--the facts are there for anyone who wants to see.

It is neither the college's responsibility to find jobs for their students after graduation, be cheap, be quick, or to lower its standards to prevent drop-outs.

No one said that. This is a strawman argument. I wasn't talking about whose responsibility it was; I was pointing out that those colleges sell one thing (jobs) while actually delivering something else (an education--maybe--along with a certificate or degree).

The loan is between the student and the government, not the school and the government.

Really? Then why do schools have financial aid officers and departments that process student loans? No, the school makes a promise (a job/career), charges a bundle for it (tuition, fees, books, etc.), arranges for financing (student loans), delivers an interim service/product (education plus certificate/degree) and this is off the hook for what they promised (job/career)? Nonsense. If you go to a car dealership (akin to the school), buy a car (akin to education plus certificate/degree), arrange financing (akin to a student loan), but the car fails to perform as advertised, is the dealership off the hook because the bank holds the note? No way. Nor should under-performing schools that promise the world and deliver crap be let off, either. They should be held accountable from at least two perspectives: the customers' (students') and the stakeholders' (taxpayers'). Caveat emptor doesn't cut it in the world of aggressive advertising and profit-taking we see with these schools. They need to be held to account.

[Hungry Ghost]

"The Obama administration on Thursday released its controversial proposed regulations to end federal student aid to for-profit colleges whose graduates do not earn enough to repay their loans."

The current powers-that-be absolutely HATE "for-profit" higher education because --

A) They have real concerns about these schools' over-use of adjuncts and the resulting erosion of professorial working conditions.

B) They are themselves heavily weighted with crypto-socialists and syndicalists who instinctively distrust the market and believe that profit is at best a corrupting motive and perhaps even equates to theft (as Karl Marx put it).

That's why these kind of politically-motivated attacks are always directed squarely at "for-profit" schools and rarely address non-profit or public institutions which can perform just as badly.

I'm all for leaning on shitty education to shape up and can perhaps even support moves to make poor performing schools inelegible for federal aid, depending on the small-print details. But that's never going to happen, since it would disproportionately impact minority-serving and urban institutions that represent our leaders' bread and butter.

How many trendy and highly politicized programs in post-modern-this and eco-that whose graduates all seem to end up as career-activists would meet the standards that they want to apply to the evil "for-profits"?

But of course that's different.

So the focus somehow turns away from educational effectiveness and the question of whether the taxpayers should be indirectly subsidizing every professor's self-indulgent brainstorms, and centers itself on trashing the profit motive.

All of our edu-leaders can agree with the teacher's unions on that one.

[Jack]

So the focus somehow turns away from educational effectiveness and the question of whether the taxpayers should be indirectly subsidizing every professor's self-indulgent brainstorms, and centers itself on trashing the profit motive.

Where I live there are a lot of smallish, private liberal arts colleges that have no grad schools. The story we're told is that these are the schools that offer the best undergrad education because it's the tenured faculty teaching virtually all the courses (not grad assistants) and the focus is on teaching excellance, not research. Unfortunately, because there are no real research dollars pouring into the school and because they are not supported (directly) by tax payers dollars, the cost of attending these schools is well above the means of most families.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934033.html

[Eric]

Subject all graduates of all universities to NQE.
The exams should be equally administered by representatives of for profit and non profit universities and colleges.

National Quality Examinations for college graduates results can be posted on web site for public access.

This will indicate the level of success of the graduates in passing such exams.

Conduct employability survey of graduates , that can show % of success in securing jobs.